Zugg Software :: View topic

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:29 pm

It's a valid point, but I think it's a small effect. I know that there is license stealing going on because we have run into several cases already where someone is using somebody elses elicense code (somehow) and are the first to upgrade to the new system, changing the name and email address associated with the key. Then the original purchaser goes to upgrade and finds their name and email changed. We have followed up several cases like this already.

In any case, even if we don't go back to eLicense, you can expect to see a return to licenses that are locked to a particular computer in the new zMUDXP product. Like with eLicense, we will probably allow 3 computers to use a license key at once and will need to keep track of that in our registration database, which means doing an initial "phone home" to verify the license key. Or, we will come up with some way to generate a "hardware id key" and then enter it into the store to get a license key that works on the specific hardware id that is entered. Basically, doing the same as eLicense but using our new store system instead of their system. I hate to do it, but it doesn't look like I have much choice.

As far as the www.zmud.com site, that used to be owned by a MUD called "ZeeMud" or something like that, which actually existed before zMUD. They used to have a link to our site on their own web site. Now it looks like their site expired and the domain is being sat on by some other company looking to make money from it. I don't pay for domains...I think domain-squatting is a crime and I don't support it. I don't think it causes much lost sales at all. If someone goes to www.zmud.com looking for zMUD and doesn't find it, then it only takes a simple Google search of zMUD to get to our correct site. As Google searching as become the dominent form of finding stuff on the Internet, the actual domain names matter less and less.

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:08 pm

What if a household had its own license system as opposed to a per-person system? You have $25 for the initial license, and then $10 for each additional user/computer within which ought to make seperate licenses more attractive for couples/families who mud together? As far as I can see, people who live together are already sharing a license possibly without realising they arent supposed to

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:38 pm

I just wonder how many people don't know *how* to use google (or any search engine). Sadly, I still know many people who don't know how (but do buy software)... that was why I brought up the zMUD thing. Still, if it's owned by squatters, I suppose it wouldn't be worth the price to register in terms of what it would make back...

Here's my only concern with the hardware ID system: for someone like myself, who upgrades computers frequently (between laptop and PC, I get at least 2 new computers every 8-12 months) would I be required to purchase new licensing every time? I have no problems with the 2 year upgrades, or with purchasing a new version of zMUDXP (in light of this thread, I have less problems with it than ever). However, purchasing 2 new zMUD licenses per year could eventually become a much more prohibitive expense... though as I think about it, that's still little more than a "subscription" fee in many ways.. but it still adds up :P

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

I have refrained from saying anything in this thread long enough; I have 11 valid zMud licenses, and that is only because I felt so strongly about the quality of Zuggsoft that when someone mentioned they were pirating zMud during the Christmas season I decided I should transfer one of my licenses to them. Zugg made this happen; and likely I wasn't the only one willing to gift someone with a zMud license, because he also built the system to facilitate such gifts about the same time. Zugg has always supported his customers' desires in software while trying to provide them the greatest value of return on his time. Not too many people are computer programmers, and even those that are often don't have the depth of experience that 20 years of pragramming yields. Zugg has been here for us for a long time, and deserves our support.

We are more than just his customers. We are his friends.

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:17 am

Please don't misunderstand my last comment... I have 2 valid licenses myself, and will be purchasing a 3rd (which will probably just sit there collecting dust until zMUDXP comes out ;) ) tomorrow. When I mentioned the "prohibitive expense" I was referring mainly to the fact that the majority of people that use zMUD are college students (or younger) who simply can't afford the "upkeep" of needing to buy multiple licenses per year of zMUD (these are often also the people who likely get new computers from parents for school yearly or bi-yearly, and probably have *many* different computers they MUD from, be in dorms/classes/etc). For people like myself, who upgrade computers often for business or other reasons, the need to purchase 2-4 additional licenses can become a large expense ($70-$140 annually), but in the end, I get my money's worth out of it, and am not overly concerned with it (as long as I can continhue to afford it ;) it would be a much different issue if I couldn't afford it -- but then I would probably be upgrading computers less, too).

Anyway, the point was more that if a specific hardware-ID license came out, a large portion of the target demographic who currently use (and hopefully purchase) zMUD would probably find that the "upkeep" on it was too expensive for them. It could hurt sales severely in the long run. I never really understood why E-License was so "bad" -- 3 computers is ample for anyone (it's home/school, work, laptop -- if you need to use more than 3 computers/have a spouse/etc, another $30 is no big deal) and it wasn't particuarly intrusive, or a massive hassle or anything -- if anything, needing to save the new ultra-long license code is (to me) more of a hassle than the old E-License which had my code preloaded when it needed to be re-validated...

Anyway, it's late, and I'm rambling, and probably not making much sense :P All I was trying to say is that (imo) E-License was (from the user end, I don't know about from Zugg's side?) not a big deal to me... but I could forsee a hardware ID system forcing many of the people who can't afford to put zMUD on all of the computers they use/upgrade to to find an alternative program... which would bring the problem right back to where it is: sales need to increase.

By the way... I have been posting the url to the first page of this thread to public channels on the MUD I play... I think Zugg's first statement pretty much sums it all up very well, and I think (well I hope) that if everyone who reads this thread simply posts the URL to their MUD, it might help increase sales, at least a little. A lot of people who don't even know these forums exist might be much more inclined to support (or re-support) the program we all use so much if they realized where things stood...

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:23 am

Oh, one last thing, and then I'll shut up :) Was thinking that perhaps the Hurricane Disaster Relief funds could be affecting sales a bit? ASAIK, sales on virtually every convenience (or general non-necessity item) in the country have dipped since the Hurricane hit, and quite noticeably. And it's generally being attributed to the fact that many, MANY people have been donating any spare money they have to the relief funds... I am sure it's not the reason sales have dropped to an all-time low; but it could perhaps be yet another contributing factor...

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

My guess is that you wouldn't need to buy a new license each time you upgrade. eLicense didn't require this and I doubt Zugg would require it with a new licensing scheme. Most likely you would have to first unlicense before upgrading your computer and then you would be able to generate a new license for your new hardware configuration since the old one has already been invalidated.

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:55 am

As Kjata mentioned, there would obviously be a method available to unlicense a computer, just like there was with eLicense. I always try to do things that make sense. While Zugg Software products will likely cost more in the future (without the free upgrades for example), I'm not greedy and would never do something that was a big burden on lots of people.

As far as the "family" license concept, the problem with a lot of these kind of concepts is that there just isn't any way to implement them in a secure way. It's hard enough coming up with a user-specific license. And with that failing, a computer-specific license is the easiest thing to implement securely. I'm afraid that until computers come with some sort of fingerprint ID system as a standard feature (only high-end business systems currently have them), then licensing will always be a pain. There are just *so* many different ways for hackers to get around a system, and I don't want to make a system so obscure that it gets in the way for the normal customer.

What you will see more of from me in the future is licensing that depends upon your past orders in our Store database, rather than tying it to a specific license key. For example, to determine who gets a free version of zMUDXP, it will look in the Store to see if you purchased zMUD within a certain time frame. If so, you will get a special offer, much like the current "Bundles" that are visible in the store, that will allow you to buy zMUDXP for free, or for a discount. You'll be able to do this once per previous zMUD order.

So, for example, if someone has shared their existing zMUD license key with their friends, only the original person who can log into their Store account will be able to get the free upgrade. And if zMUDXP has a license that is tied to the hardware ID of a computer, then their friends won't get a free copy of zMUDXP but will have to purchase their own.

In the past, all that mattered was having a license key. In the future, your Store login will become more and more important. While the recent zMUD upgrade allowed you to automatically upgrade zMUD from within the eLicense system (with the Upgrade button), products in the future won't have this automatted ability but will require you to log into your Store account and retrieve any new license code from there.

Apprentice Joined: 08 Dec 2002 Posts: 152

Look, why not do simply copy the way VALVe (Steam) does the trick?
Instead of trying to fight how many can register the same product, fight how many can use it at the same time.
for every random seconds/minutes zMud sends a data stream to your Big Homepage Machine asking from the database is "he" the only one online. If not, there comes !!!!YOU ARE USING DUBLICATE OF THIS PRODUCT KEY!!! and the program shuts down and erases C: drive.
Works damn well with half-life copys, still sold at shops.

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

Some people hated e-License because it installed a service that was always running and had to phone home when licensing and unlicensing zMUD. Zugg tried the new licensing method to eliminate this. Changing to a Valve-like system, which people seem to hate even more, would be worse than going back to an eLicense-like system.

Apprentice Joined: 08 Dec 2002 Posts: 152

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:55 am

I would *never* use that kind of system. I never want zMUD to depend upon some remote server being available. What if you want to use zMUD on an internal network (some people use it to control/script routers, for example). Or what if something happened to the zuggsoft.com server? If people were denied the use of zMUD just because our server was down, people would never buy anything from me ever again! I know that I'd be really annoyed if any software did this to me.

It might be fine for some games like Valve's or for online games where the game itself needs to be up and running. But with MUDs it's really a totally different environment. Also, Valve is popular enough that they can afford to lose sales because of systems like this.

With zMUD I always hope that even if people give out copies to their friends, it's somewhat like free advertising and maybe their friends will eventually buy their own copies.

Anyway, Kjata is right on...a system like that is never going to happen here.

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:34 am

Unless its updated to a modern era, I hope elicense dies and goes away never to be mentioned again. Bloody stupid how the last version we had here was incompatible with x64 OS's, at least a whole year of x64 machines being available.

As for using a remote server to authenticate a copy of zmud at runtime...heh. Been there, done that...

Apprentice Joined: 08 Dec 2002 Posts: 152

It does not have to be that tide up and you dont need that Hard Core build that VALVe uses.
You could simply enhance the present situation. If zMud finds that there is a update available and the user wont upgrade, the zMud would lock down waiting to be updated and erase itself after X unsuccesfull update attempts.

Making/keeping the product in X uses (for X number of computers, X many copy's) cuts the life spawn of one license to 2-4v years in a hands of a computer user (read: player). If this is the situtation you are aiming at, ignore this comment but note simple clock down counter would do the trick too.

GURU Joined: 23 Dec 2000 Posts: 4834 Location: USA

With the counter, you open yourself up to the user finding your data storage location, figuring out how to translate it, and then editing back so that the application never knows the difference.

Apprentice Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 195

Wanderer Joined: 13 Jun 2005 Posts: 51

I have a question about the new license system.
What will happened, if I change cpu, memory and harddisk and etc, or the old system simply died?
As I remember microsof windows activation system allow user to change hardware completely 4 times a year.

Beginner Joined: 26 Sep 2005 Posts: 14

I'll be honest, I think that removing eLicense was not a good business decision. I never had a problem with it as a consumer. I understood that you were a private developer funding your own projects and this was your way of keeping people honest. I was very pleased that I would be allowed to install it on 3 computers, which frankly is more than enough for 99% of the computing world.

I think people are stealing your program, like you've feared, and now there's an easily pirated version available on the internet. I don't know if your sales can recover from that. You can't switch back to eLicense now until you release your new product, because 7.20 will always be available with publicly available keys.

People are generally honest and good...except when you put them alone in a room with a computer where they know that nobody is goign to make them accountable for their actions. Most people don't swipe CDs from stores, but they'll download 20 gigs of MP3s without a single pang of guilt. Now I'm not saying I'm a fan of the RIAA, and I don't want to get into the ethics of music downloading, but the fact is that people will commit theft on their computers with little or no provocation.

Gas prices and the holidays aren't the answers. Neither is the fact that you have a new product in the works. If "impulse purchasing" is your target market, which is probably right, then nobody really cares if a new product will be available at some unknown date that may never arrive. They'll buy it now if they want it.

I don't want to sound mean, but what you did was make pirating your software much easier by removing eLicense. You said yourself that when you put it in your sales increased. I don't think that anything short of a major new version release and reinstating eLicense will solve your problem. Did people really have tha tmuch of a problem with it? I never found it to be intrusive or offensive in anyway.

I don't want to be dour, but I think that's the hard reality of it. You were nice to people and they're screwing you in return. I really hope that I'm wrong, but fear that I am not.

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:12 pm

Honestly, the main reason I removed eLicense was because they charged me 7% of my sales, and that was adding up to a lot. Once I discovered a copy protection with no sales percent charges, I wanted to switch to try and save money. The fact that the opposite has happened and I have lost money is why I got so upset. I'm still hopeful that it's just the 30-day effect of resetting the trial version, but I'll know that soon enough.

Yes, eLicense was also a pain sometimes for some people. I know about the problems because of the support email we were always getting about it. But it was mainly the ongoing cost of eLicense that caused me to change.

The new version still isn't "easily pirated". Yes, people have 7 days in which they can share their key with a friend. But this still required someone to buy a valid key. And if they share it with their friends, then their friends will have trouble if they ever want to upgrade in the future. So it's not like there can be massive piracy here.

But yes, I think your conclusion is valid...I was nice to people and got screwed. It's only a small minority of people abusing the new system, and it might result in sales eventually. But by making the copy protection system easier, some people clearly took advantage of that. Unfortunately, that's what the MUD market is these days...it has a higher percentage of dishonest people, or a higher percentage of younger people who just think everything in the world should be free. The comparison with MP3 downloading is a good one. But this is the market I have been working with for 10 years, and it's always been like this. At some point I just have to live with it and hope it mysteriously works out in the end.

As far as any new copy protection system, people shouldn't worry about this until I actually do something that they can try out. I'm well aware that people upgrade computers, or that computers crash. I'm not going to do something that ends up being worse than eLicense was. There will always be a way to unlicense a previous computer that you upgraded. And simple upgrades won't cause the license to stop working. These days, the biggest change to your hardware that effects license keys is changing your network card since most systems use the unique ID on your network card as a system ID. Some newer computers have a unique ID on the motherboard itself. In those systems you'd have to change the entire motherboard before the ID would get changed.

So don't lose sleep trying to worry about all of this. There are *lots* of companies that use the new copy protection system that I'm using and there is a *lot* of experience with this. I'm not going to do something stupid, so don't worry about it.

As far as the low sales, I'll be able to let you know in another week or so if it's just the 30-day effect of resetting trials.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:00 pm

7 days is too long. Your email comes through immeadiately, I've registered twice, one at work and one at home and never needed more than 10 minutes. Personally if I were you and it was possible I would make it 2 days or 3 at the very maximum.

Beginner Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 28

Apprentice Joined: 29 Jun 2001 Posts: 198 Location: USA

Beginner Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 13 Location: Wyoming

Heya Zugg I think your stuff Is awesome infact I was thinking on purchasing a copy due to the fact I like the triggers and the Automap feature. Although I've been using your demo version of Zmud 7.21. What will be the differences with the new product. Will the free upgrade to the new version still be around if I register this one? Anyway hope your sticking in there. Times are tough right now because of this Gas Crunch / Oil. I believe personally its to finance the War effort but thats just me.

P.S. Your Store Certificate has expired. Yesterday 10/18/2005

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:31 pm

Read the various zMUDXP threads for more information on the new product.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:32 pm

Where did you get the message that the store certificate had expired? I haven't seen any warning in my browser here.