Zugg Software :: View topic

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:04 am

Having read through the discussions, I've come to several conclusions:

Making a new product, with a different name, that does essentially the same stuff (yes, with new features, but still), and discontinuing the current product, will make some people feel cheated. Whether its the actual licence that claims the free upgrades, or some text on the website, is neither here nor there.

Anyway, these particular people that want to keep their free upgrades, how likely are they to make you more revenue at all? Not much, in my opinion, so annoying them has no downsides. You can't please all of the people..

I would say it would be a good idea to: Get rid of that "free upgrades" text, change it to something like 'bug fixes/minor feature changes are free, major features (version number changes) are free for up to two years after purchase'. Do that right now, implement it so that people purchasing new zMud licences now get this in their licence/see it on the site. Continue to have promotions/compeitions in which people can win licences/free upgrades etc.

As for the new product, I would suggest starting with something simple, with some features that the current one does not have, ie. SSH. I for one would be more likely to need/use a nice, small, SSH client that has good scripting capabilities and highlighting, just for my everyday work. Make it more modular, so that the basic client has a small footprint, so that mapping is a plugin, ssh is a plugin, MUD protocols are plugins, etc etc. I think if you could sell a telnet/ssh client with scripting to a large company or two, you'd have revenue to tide you over to whatever comes next.

Apart from that, although branching out into other software is hard, zApp could be great if it had amount 3 tons more documentation/examples, and some marketing. (Really the best/easiest way to do that would be to write something in it that gets around, TUCOWS etc, I'm not sure a new MUD client is *it* though.)

Personally I'd also emphasise more on your frontpage that this is a one-man company that caters directly/personally to its customers as much as possible, that you personally read/answer the forums, helped by your army of Gurus, that you need to eat to survive/be able to continue what you do. I'm fairly sure that many users don't know this.

Lady C.

Adept Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 277

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:22 pm

There's nothing stopping people from donating documentation for the things they know, for zmud, zmapper or zapp :P Well, apart from not knowing anything about it of course...

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:46 am

No, really? I wouldnt have guessed... </sarcasm> ;)

Yes, thats clear, but at the moment, even for programmers, its been "entertaining" to get to grips with.. Plus when Zugg is busy, it's hard to get responses to questions, such that one loses interest occasionally.. I'm making notes as I go, which may be worth submitting at some point.. What may be needed is a question+answer session with Zugg in realtime, to figure out how things work.

IMO whats missing, is reverse documentation, i.e. Instead of knowing what a checkbox/button is, and looking it up in the reference, one needs to be able to search on "on/off button", "button with tick", "button to check" etc. and come up with the right object.

Anyway, this is a subject for the zApp forum, so let's continue it over there..

Lady C.

Wanderer Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 56 Location: USA

I didn't really have the time to read all 6 pages, so I apologize if this question has been asked before.

As a long-time user of zMUD (7+ years), I just don't understand the reasoning behind requiring people who purchased zMUD before the seemingly arbitrary June date to purchase the new product. It looks like you're punishing people who haven't given money recently. I don't mean to sound critical, it was just a little aggravating to read that. Perhaps I missed something somewhere that listed the reasoning behind it, but I simply cannot grasp why you'd do this to your long-time customers.

-Zodican

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

The only punnishment going on is Zugg going out of business because nobody's buying the client anymore.

If you want to keep using the regular version of Zmud then go right ahead, it's not going to suddenly stop working because Zugg is working on a new product. After all, Zmud 4.62 still works and this is how many years later? About that 7+ years?

You would'a got it for, what, 20 bucks? So that's less than $0.008 per day you've paid over the last 7+ years. Seems a pretty good deal to me...

Anyway, at some point you have to say "this product is getting old, it is written in a compiler that is no longer supported (delphi 5), there's hundreds of thousands of lines of code that need to be maintained, it's time to let it go and start fresh using today's technology".

As a long-time user of zMUD (7+ years), I understand perfectly the reasoning behind creating a new product which will far out-do the old and charging people to buy it. In fact, we should all pay full price, but instead Zugg's said that it'll likely be around the 1/2 price mark to upgrade, which is showing great loyalty to his long-time customers since really he doesn't owe us anything, we've got well over our $0.008 worth out of our purchase.

In fact I felt so bad about the 0.8 cents per day I've actually bought 5 copies of zMUD, 2 copies of zMapper and 1 copy of zApp over my 7+ years and still feel a bit cheap about it all, because even though that comes out at the $200 mark, over 7+ years it comes out to 10x what you paid... so 8 cents per day, which I think is still extremely good value for money.

I certainly don't eat for 8 cents a day, and I dunno about you, but MUDding is more important to me than eating :p

I think Zugg's really losing out anyway, I pay 21.99 a month to play Everquest2 and I use that for less hours per day than I use zMUD, maybe he should charge a subscription for the next incarnation, I'd still buy it :p

Novice Joined: 16 Oct 2000 Posts: 43 Location: USA

Feedback:

* I have no problems paying for a new client and would buy the pro version straight up. I bought zMUD back around 4.62 and since then I've come nowhere near using all of zMUD's features. I believe in supporting shareware that's backed by quality work, and Zugg Software qualifies for my support.

* I'm not big on software subscriptions for a number of reasons, primarily because you want to hit the impulse buyer. People think twice about subscriptions but have less hesitation springing for a one-time payment. Asking payment for a major upgrade is perfectly acceptable. M$ has generated all kinds of ill will with its "Software Assurance" program; learn from its mistakes and don't do subscriptions / maintenance / whatever.

Commentary:

* Zugg, take some time to crunch numbers and come up with some what-if data for your business plan. Your core competency is Delphi programming; your market niche is MUDding. Do some careful thinking and weigh whether the world really needs another e-mail client versus whether the established market can sustain ongoing payments for new MUD client versions. Both may come up with numbers lower than what you need to keep your business afloat. Time maybe for server-side development to complement client-side?

* I write how-to-use-software books for a living. Zugg, your product is great, but the UI and help files need work. Find some people with UI design background and writing skills and let them help you design those parts of the product. The UI should behave consistently with other Windows applications. As for the help files, you don't have to write them to grade-school level but they need an overhaul and a tutorial for folks new to MUDding and new to scripting.

Wanderer Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 56 Location: USA

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:09 am

Someone reminded me how I came across my copy of zmud (thanks mr_kent), my finances have changed since then I'd be happy to purchase zmudxp for myself and close friends when it comes out

GURU Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 4379 Location: USA

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:57 pm

Zodican, this is a *very* common practice when a company releases a new product. How would you feel if you bought zMUD and then just a week later a new MUD client with a lot more features for the same price was released? You'd probably be pissed that you didn't just wait a week and buy the new program. That's what the June deadline accomplishes.

Many companies call this "upgrade protection". For example, typically you get one major version per upgrade. So if you buy 1.0, then you get 1.1, 1.2, etc for free, but then you have to pay to upgrade to 2.0. In this case, most companies will give you 2.0 for free if you purchased 1.x within the past month or so. Again, most people would be pissed if they bought v1.6 and then 2.0 shipped a month later and they had to pay for it again.

That's basically what I'm doing with the June thing. I'm not trying to annoy long-time users. As many have already said, most long-time users are already perfectly happy with the value they've gotten from zMUD. When setting a deadline of June for free copies of the new MUD client, there is always someone that isn't going to be happy...especially people who bought it towards the end of May. This will happen no matter what I set the date to.

As I've said many times, there is no way to please everyone. All I can do is try to please as many people as possible, and setting a date like June 1st for free upgrades to the new product makes a lot more people happier.

Finally, the other reason this is a common practice is that you don't want to do something to mess up current sales. For example, if people knew that I was releasing a new MUD client soon and they weren't going to get it for free, then people would stop buying the current zMUD and just wait for the new product. I can't afford for this to happen. I live week by week on current zMUD income. If people stopped buying zMUD suddenly, then I'd be out of business. Giving a free copy of the new product to existing customers who have purchased zMUD recently lets people go ahead and buy zMUD, knowing that they won't be left out in the cold when the new product is released.

So, I hope that explains more of the philosophy. It's a combination of trying to do the best that I can for customers while keeping the Zuggsoft business healthy and alive.

Beginner Joined: 19 Aug 2005 Posts: 28

I haven't voted since I am still wrestling with myself over how I feel on this.

On the one hand, free upgrades for life is one of the reasons I bought zMUD. I rarely MUD any more, but I need a good telnet/SSH client from time to time and usually try to keep the latest version of zMUD installed on my Windows box. Your word is good sir, or it isn't.

Having said that, I understand that you are a one man show and I have certainly gotten my money's worth out of the product I purchased, including support on the 2 occaisions I needed it. I mean real support, not from the community (not dissing the latter).

I will probably vote that I would upgrade for half price and write it off as a good compromise.

Novice Joined: 16 Oct 2000 Posts: 43 Location: USA

Daffyd:

Excellent and thoughtful first post. I took some time to think before replying, which I don't always do. ;)

* I went through the product upgrade problem with a product that I was product manager for. We had a 32-bit app on the market that worked well, and there was a "Productname for Life!" campaign promising cheap upgrades, free support, etc. for the life of the product. For marketing reasons (the company was marketing-driven, not product-driven -- I loathed the marketroids) we came out with a new 32-bit product, new code, same target market. It ruffled more than a few customers' feathers who wanted the new product as part of the "for Life!" campaign. We still maintained the older product for two years after the new one was released. We lost a few customers, but they tended to be the prickly ones, the ones where you spend far more on them than what you gain through the realized revenue. Moral: there are no easy choices when you risk alienating customers. The best you can do is offer alternatives that help make up the difference.

* There is a market for a decent Windows-based telnet / ssh application, but it's not a big one. For enterprise desktops, 3270 and 5250 with some VT thrown in are the client of choice, but even those are slowly migrating to browser-based apps. For what it's worth, I haven't been too impressed with the telnet clients out there; too many quirks and strange implementations of the specs.

* I like the a la carte idea, though it may be an administrative nightmare for Zugg. People also tend to prefer buying a box with everything in it, even if they don't use all of it. It's called "shelfware" but the perception is that you're getting more value for the dollar even if you don't use it -- because some day you *might* use it and it's there waiting for you.

* Offhand I'd guess that 80-85% of Zugg's revenue comes from zMUD, so even though "text-based network apps" sounds good on paper, the market reality is that it's MUD clients that pull down the dollars. Delphi programming for text-based net apps is a lot closer to Zugg's core competency (I'm guessing). Parsing and handling text is not easy -- and most of it nowadays is being handled on the server side, not the client side. Robust text-based clients are on the wane, for better or worse. MUDding is one niche where the decline may be less than elsewhere.

* As for e-mail, I use Thunderbird on Windows XP. I've puttered around with other clients and have settled on T-bird as a good basic app. Haven't played with Evolution yet though it looks decent. Speaking purely from my own navel, I think most people are satisfied with an e-mail client that is -good enough- to do the basics. The individual user market is large but held in place by inertia; small businesses may want to switch because of the security concerns you've outlined, but they don't have the staff to install, migrate, and customize a new client. I use minimal filters or triggers on my e-mail because I simply don't have the time to do more. For a one-man operation like Zugg's, the revenue from a new e-mail client may be worthwhile, yet I'm still hoping he's stepped back to run the numbers at arm's length and make an impartial decision.

* Hmm. High-volume (500 concurrent clients, maybe?) telnet / ssh server with an abstraction layer to plug in other MUD engines? That could be cool. I'm not in that market space so I can't speak to its desireability. Sounds like it could be awesome, especially if it's open enough to OEM to companies that manufacture point-of-sale software.

Thanks again, Daffyd, for the great food for thought. I've gone on longer than I thought I would; thanks for dusting the cobwebs off my brain.

Beginner Joined: 19 Aug 2005 Posts: 28

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

Daffyd, I am glad you brought up the point that the telnet protocol is still alive and well in areas other then MUDs. Moving the mud connector interface out into a plugin is definitely likely to help at tapping this market. I recall when I worked a warehouse and they added a cordless ethernet and notebook system to each forklift. The software they used at those notebook teminals had a telnet connection into the main warehouse system. I promptly granted myself program access into those systems and set them up with automatic login, and further automatic booting of the correct software. I seem to remember that those that used the system I modified were extremely happy at having just those few steps saved each day. I can definitely see the appreciation that the everyday worker would derive from steps saved by having an all-a-round better telnet client. I hope Zugg takes this into account.

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

Heh, my industry is writing telnet-based appz for warehouses :p

Of course, we use something a little more rugged than a notebook bolted to a forklift, most of our software runs on pocketpc based or ce.net based devices, for example:
http://www.symbol.com/MC9000-G/
http://www.symbol.com/VRC8900/

Anyway, I digress. There are plenty of other telnet based systems kickin' around, for example our accountants at work still use a telnet based app. It has hotzones and other features so you can click links with the mouse, but it's still very telnet at heart. Not sure how they extend the protocol to allow these clicked links, but I think it's something cheezy like "if line starts with a number, followed by a period followed by some text then it must be a menu, so make it a hotzone".

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:41 pm

Yeah, but most companies that are using legacy telnet apps like that which have been customized over the years aren't going to switch to some new zTelnet client. They usually have too much effort and training invested in the old system. When companies decide to invest the time and money to re-do old systems like that, they usually moderize with a web-based app of some sort rather than just sticking with telnet. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a great way that I'd convince companies like that to buy a zTelnet product, even if it could be customized to do what they want. It can be really hard to convince a company to change an existing app unless the existing app really doesn't work.

But, that digresses a bit off topic. A zTelnet is a possibility for the future if the zMUDXP project works out well. It would certainly be a lot easier to turn zMUDXP into a simpler telnet client than it is to modify the current zMUD code.

Novice Joined: 26 Jul 2002 Posts: 35 Location: USA

I have given you money several times over the the past decade. I woun't mind at all paying for another round. When do the pre-sales start?

Beginner Joined: 17 Oct 2003 Posts: 19 Location: Australia

A suggestion for the angry people: create a portal and present them with the date of their initial purchase. Perhaps then they'll realise just how long they've stretched their dollar (just how long can you keep chewing the one piece of bubblegum??).

I both agree and am not at all surprised that the zMUD code has reached its end of life (lawyers be damned). It has been pulled apart and put back together for so many years to work with so many different versions of windows that I consider it 'fragile' at best, but I'm still happily nursing the old girl along saving the settings according to crib notes, copying settings into notepad and back because that's what I know works...

I'm already salivating over how a fresh rewrite using new toolsets would hasten the text scroll, or even just on more more stable an environment it'd be to mess with. How many hooks into external programs and web services I might create. The list goes on...

My suggestion for purchasing: Offer one product. Lite vs. Pro always pisses me off, like rubbing the noses of less the affluent into the dirt and blaming them for not being able to enjoy the benefits if they'd only work harder. Pick the middle price and offer "the core product", period. Do a cutdown version of zTelnet for $15 as a side-project if you wish, but don't waste time on the corporates unless they start actually buying; talk is cheap.

Regarding plug-ins, I'd love it if you made it a once-off fee for full access to the candy store. That's right: all plugins, grab 'em if you need 'em. Perhaps the same price as zMUDXP itself - a bit steep if you only want one, but if you *really* want one you'll pay it... besides, access to ALL those other goodies is just too good to refuse, isn't it? You could try them out and see which ones you liked... ! :)

Good luck Zugg, whichever path you tread. You're one of the good guys. ;)

Newbie Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 8 Location: Norway

I will certainly buy one of the new products, and probably start on a free plugin for wotmud as well (.Net programmer for a big bad company here).

The things I would appreciate the most is the change in database design and settings.

My wish, if I may, for the new app is stability when both playing and developing/changing stuff. Stability as in never crashes, and when it does, it crashes nicely to desktop with my winxp alive and kicking, and with something clever in a log I can post somewhere for you to look at.

In addition, if I change anything I should only worry about loosing changes to crashes, not corrupting anything. This works for both the map and the settings. As far as I can tell you are way ahead of me on this issue, with the new database and all that.

Good luck!

Humble

Novice Joined: 16 Oct 2000 Posts: 43 Location: USA

Daffyd (and Zugg):

There *is* a market for top-drawer telnet clients, especially ones that are easily scriptable (key word is "easily") and have a sophisticated trigger engine. HDAs, developers, and sysadmins would love a good VT client. Strip out the Mud Connector module, leave the parsing engine intact, include SSH, and you'd have a damn fine client.

This market is small, perhaps on the order of several tens of thousands of dollars' revenue a year, but as a one-horse shop, that may be more than enough to keep Zuggsoft afloat.

I wouldn't expect to see zTelnet replace any customized end-user apps that have been developed over the years, so the orders-of-magnitude-larger market won't spring open at your command. But capturing a share of the sysadmin market would be worth the investment.

--Mike

Newbie Joined: 29 Aug 2002 Posts: 8

Zugg, (King of Smarts, Winner Of All Wins) zMUD was the first computer program I ever purchased, and it was (is) worth much more than every penny I paid for it. I will more than happily buy this zMUDXP if it has new and/or improved features that merit its purchase. I have no doubts whatsoever that this will be the case.

zMUD = Awesomeness to the 100%
zMUDXP = Awesomeness to the let's find out, shall we?

I have recommended zMUD to all of my gamer friends, and they have all purchased copies for themselves. They absolutely love it. I will strongly recommend that they buy zMUDXP after I have confirmed its awesomeness. (strictly a formality, I assure you)

Newbie Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 6

I love zMud, and have conitnued using Windows vs Linux because of it. But I cant see myself rebuying zMud unless zChat was totally fixed and improved. I find zMud+zChat to be very buggy, though I greatly enjoy having zChat, I have learned how to use it without causing the errors that crash the program.

Other MUD clients have improved chat over the years, and I think zChat needs to catch up.

Please rewrite zChat, and you'll keep me as a customer.

Newbie Joined: 28 Aug 2005 Posts: 1

I'm a long-time zMud user (since just before version 2).

I don't mind paying for a new version - free upgrades are nice, but I understand that the mud market does not grow exceptionally fast, and you need to make money. I've payed for zMud twice so far (once long ago, and again now I've started mudding again) and don't mind paying for it again - zMud is a very good product, and very reasonably priced considering the amount of enjoyment I get out of my time using it.

My thoughts on the whole matter, though:

Please, PLEASE don't do the light/normal/pro route. Offer a single program - but don't sell a limited version, then sell an upgrade to another. Don't sell a basic version and have several seperate plugins sold to extend capability either (for things that should be included in the original program, such as the mapper) These things end up being sort of a "Hidden cost" and they really discourage customers.

There are a LOT of reasons behind this - I can get into them if you want, but most seem pretty obvious - but the single biggest reason is that it makes sharing scripts very difficult.
A *LOT* of zMud users never do any scripting themselves; it actually amazes me how many. This is mostly in the New-To-Mudding crowd - someone new to mudding in general is encouraged to use zMud because it *IS* the best, and hooked up with a whack of scripts for whatever mud they are on to make the whole process easier and more enjoyable. These people realise then just how much zMud does for them, and will buy it when their trial expires. You want new users to buy, so you need to make zMud as new-user-friendly as possible.

I don't mind paying, say, $15-20(half full cost?) for all major upgrades with free bugfixes, that's perfectly reasonable. You need to keep yourself in business, and I'll happily contribute that if it continues to motivate you to improve zMud on a large scale.

I don't know what major features you want to add, but my primary interest is in speed - I don't want my scripting to slow things down, or cause scrolling hiccups, which it does.

Docking is also a major issue, particularly controls. We're currently VERY limited in where and how we can attach controls, I want to be able to put them wherever I want. Toolbars as per windows would be nice, ones I can just drag around and pop down anywhere.

Finally, mapper prettiness issues. I'd like different shaped rooms, font adjustability on a per-label basis, and the ability to "draw freely" on the map - for example, to draw lines, boxes, imbed graphics(tiles?) ect around sections of the map.

Honestly, I'm not looking for major new features - they'd be nice, though I don't know what else I could possibly need :) I'll happily pay for improvements to what zMud already offers.

Hell, once you can give a definate release date, I'll pre-pay for it.

Newbie Joined: 20 Sep 2003 Posts: 1 Location: Australia

I would buy it without a moments hesitiation and then probably a copy of zApp too.

The features you have mentioned that would appeal:
- Customisability. This is what I use Zmud for (scripting, adding features for mapping and presenting mud output optimally, etc.).
- zApp integration. Looking at zApp I am almost tempted to buy it now, despite the fact that I have no use for it. It seems such a natural step on from zMud that I can recall being surprised that zMud wasn't already converted to a zApp application.
- A hope that there would be less ideosycracies in trying to work with the map from scripts. (I have had to do a lot of workarounds and research to get around some fairly simple and avoidable limitations in the API.)
- Less convoluted ways to make plugins?
- Things like the ability to put partially transparent output over the top of the scroll back text view would be handy.
- Backwards compatibility things (like strange docking things that you have to get used to or work around) would be good to see gone.

The 'free upgrades' promise is no problem for me as it is clearly a new product. (A much greater change, for example, than from Windows 95 -> 98 -> ME). I have got more than my money's worth from my current zMud and the current version is still the most feature rich client available so I could not honestly object to being expected to purchase a new product considering the improvements that you allude to.

I've read the thread and everything here has all been said before, but count me in amongst the enthusiasts who would pay what you were asking and think they've got themselves a great deal in the process.