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Vorax
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jun 2001
Posts: 198
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:15 am   

zMUD disconnecting
 
As suggested a few times, I've started a new thread. This is something that caught my eye from this: http://www.zuggsoft.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15877

I've been running into this kind of disconnecting problem for quite a while. I didn't think anything of it until I started reading that other people have had the same thing happen to them. Before v7, I would get disconnected from the MUD for no aparent reason shortly after logging on. On occasion, this still happens. The MUD hasn't crashed and neither has zMUD. It simply disconnects. As of recent, this happens more often but not in the same time span that it had previously done. I often log on and just sit there (because as an immortals, there's not much to do). As a result, there's not much output to my screen. I often browse web pages until I see something's happened on the MUD and switch back to check it out. Sometimes I notice a really long time between anything happening, so I switch back to check it out anyway. Upon entering any kind of command, the status bar turns red (disconnected) and the command isn't echoed to the mud output. Often it will disconnect again after reconnecting. It's a minor annoyance, but it's not something I wouldn't want happening to me if I were playing a mortal at the time.

Running v7.05 on Win2k Pro.
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Rorso
Wizard


Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:23 am   
 
quote:
Originally posted by Vorax

As suggested a few times, I've started a new thread. This is something that caught my eye from this: http://www.zuggsoft.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15877

I've been running into this kind of disconnecting problem for quite a while. I didn't think anything of it until I started reading that other people have had the same thing happen to them. Before v7, I would get disconnected from the MUD for no aparent reason shortly after logging on. On occasion, this still happens. The MUD hasn't crashed and neither has zMUD. It simply disconnects. As of recent, this happens more often but not in the same time span that it had previously done. I often log on and just sit there (because as an immortals, there's not much to do).


Not much to do? Building, coding, running quests, making stories, helping new players, working on the webpage. I have trouble making everything I want to do.

quote:

As a result, there's not much output to my screen. I often browse web pages until I see something's happened on the MUD and switch back to check it out. Sometimes I notice a really long time between anything happening, so I switch back to check it out anyway. Upon entering any kind of command, the status bar turns red (disconnected) and the command isn't echoed to the mud output. Often it will disconnect again after reconnecting. It's a minor annoyance, but it's not something I wouldn't want happening to me if I were playing a mortal at the time.

Running v7.05 on Win2k Pro.


First of all I would check the server log file to see what kind of disconnection occured. That is if it was because of an error or normal. The MUD does not have to crash to disconnect players improperly.

Some routers could also cause things like this. Do you have the same problem when downloading files for a long time? Or when running chats that uses persistant connections?
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nematocyst
Newbie


Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 5
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:42 pm   
 
I've had problems idling for long periods for years. I doubt it is a zMud problem, but I can't be sure.

If I remove my router from the loop, then my idling troubles disappear, but I must admit to have not tried using vanilla telnet with the router present.

Since I only idle with my wizard characters, I simply made an object that spits out a message every 10 minutes. And of course, I have a gag for the text so I don't have to see it. That solved my problem.

At work, I login to the mud and have no idling problems. We use a different router there, and I don't use zMud at work.

So, the idling problems I have are either because of the router, because of zMud, or some combination of both. Anyway, as I said, I fixed it by making something that sends text to my character every few minutes.
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Vorax
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jun 2001
Posts: 198
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 6:43 pm   
 
quote:
Not much to do? Building, coding, running quests, making stories, helping new players, working on the webpage. I have trouble making everything I want to do.
Immortals on my MUD have much different roles.

quote:
First of all I would check the server log file to see what kind of disconnection occured.
I don't have access to these, or any other of the MUD's files. I believe this to be solely a client issue due to the fact that I (seemingly) am the only one ever affected.

quote:
Do you have the same problem when downloading files for a long time? Or when running chats that uses persistant connections?
No, all these stay connected.
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LightBulb
MASTER


Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 4817
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:26 pm   
 
In the topic you cited, Zugg explained the problem with disconnects and stated quite specifically that "...there is no way for zMUD to disconnect you by itself. It only disconnects when it receives a Disconnect message from the Windows WINSOCK library."

You can certainly choose to ignore him but he is the expert on his programs. You would probably be better served to spend your time investigating the other possibilities he mentioned.
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nexela
Wizard


Joined: 15 Jan 2002
Posts: 1644
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:21 pm   
 
*NOTE this reply blows the topic to hell*
quote:
(because as an immortals, there's not much to do)


Geez no wonder 90% of the muds I attempt to play really SUCK.
If there is ever a time as an immortal you have nothing to do thats when you play a mort char and go around seeing What could be changed for the better mud wise (is an area to hard/easy) (should you REALLY be allowed to use that skill like that) etc. etc.

Muds I won't play
Advantages (levels stats eq) for RL money
Advancments just for playing
Really bad use of colors/blink
Very few helpfiles/useless help files
Imms with nothing to do attitudes
poorly imped/forced mud schools
Darkhaven Acadamy *nuff said* *aka*
Muds that charge me to save eq
Muds that block certain ISPs (I pay $12 a year for AOL so damnit If I wanna mud from AOL I will not to mention that ALOT of potential mudders use AOL)
*keeps ranting and ranting and ranting*

quote:
I believe this to be solely a client issue due to the fact that I (seemingly) am the only one ever affected.


Hmmmm so noone else on your mud uses Zmud I see........ From that and from what Zugg said it sounds likely that a router somewhere between you and the mud machine is either dropping small packets or otherwise changing something. TRACERT is your friend!

quote:
I don't have access to these, or any other of the MUD's files.

Then ask an Immortal that does IE I am having problems with freq disconnects I was wondering if your not to busy making this mud better if you could look through the Log files and see if my disconnect problem is caused by the mud or if its just an unexplainable drop.

Ok I better stop now
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SpiritWolf
Wanderer


Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 74
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:14 am   
 
Some muds also tend to disconnect people who sit idle for a set amount of time, so if you sit there without sending anything to the mud (even as an imm) it might disconnect you. Might try setting up an alarm or tick timer to do some action, letting the mud know you're connection is still active and not to boot you.
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Vorax
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jun 2001
Posts: 198
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:03 am   
 
quote:
In the topic you cited, Zugg explained the problem with disconnects and stated quite specifically that "...there is no way for zMUD to disconnect you by itself. It only disconnects when it receives a Disconnect message from the Windows WINSOCK library."

You can certainly choose to ignore him but he is the expert on his programs. You would probably be better served to spend your time investigating the other possibilities he mentioned.
I'm not ignoring him. However, I can't find anything wrong with the MUD server. It hasn't crashed and I do not get logged out for being idle. zMUD stops outputting text and sits there until I enter a command, at which point it disconnects me.
quote:
Some muds also tend to disconnect people who sit idle for a set amount of time, so if you sit there without sending anything to the mud (even as an imm) it might disconnect you.
I'm sure I would be aware of this by now if that were the case.
quote:
Geez no wonder 90% of the muds I attempt to play really SUCK.
If there is ever a time as an immortal you have nothing to do thats when you play a mort char and go around seeing What could be changed for the better mud wise (is an area to hard/easy) (should you REALLY be allowed to use that skill like that) etc. etc.
You clearly have never played the MUD I play. I also don't like the attitude you're displaying. Don't judge a game you've never played.
quote:
Hmmmm so noone else on your mud uses Zmud I see........ From that and from what Zugg said it sounds likely that a router somewhere between you and the mud machine is either dropping small packets or otherwise changing something. TRACERT is your friend!
Yes, other players do use zMUD, however, since I am not at their house, I don't exactly know what version they are using, nor do I know if they often get disconnected as I do. (And to clearify, it's not THAT often that it happens.)


I would also like to add that this disconnecting doesn't happen if I use telnet or WinTin.
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mr_kent
Enchanter


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 698

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:41 am   
 
quote:
Originally posted by Vorax

[quote]I'm not ignoring him. However, I can't find anything wrong with the MUD server. It hasn't crashed and I do not get logged out for being idle. zMUD stops outputting text and sits there until I enter a command, at which point it disconnects me.



I'm fairly certain this is not true. There is no 'connection' only two end-points and a dynamic path between them. Your 'connection' is not undone when you enter a command.

-- The path changes at some point while you're idling and only when zMUD sends a message down the long path to your mud and then receives a response from one of the machines on the net that the message was lost in transit, does zMUD tell you that you're disconnected, but in reality it happened before that.

I used to see this frequently and know this is the case because when it happened to me on a busy mud, I pulled chat history and saw *many* entries between the point where I no longer received input and the point of reconnection.

AS has been stated before, the easiest fix is to set up a recurring alarm or set the tick timer to periodically send *anything*. zMUD is the most robust client available. Why use it at all if you're unwilling to create a simple setting to keep your session alive?
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Rorso
Wizard


Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:26 am   
 
It could also be some higher level imm that is playing with a 'disconnect' command Smile.
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Vorax
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jun 2001
Posts: 198
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:10 pm   
 
quote:
I'm fairly certain this is not true. There is no 'connection' only two end-points and a dynamic path between them. Your 'connection' is not undone when you enter a command.

-- The path changes at some point while you're idling and only when zMUD sends a message down the long path to your mud and then receives a response from one of the machines on the net that the message was lost in transit, does zMUD tell you that you're disconnected, but in reality it happened before that.
Explain why this doesn't happen when I use telnet or WinTin?
quote:
Why use it at all if you're unwilling to create a simple setting to keep your session alive?
Why do I need to keep my session alive when idling does not, I repeat, DOES NOT, cause me to get disconnected.
quote:
It could also be some higher level imm that is playing with a 'disconnect' command .
Immortals on my MUD do not "play" with disconnecting commands, especially not with other immortals.

This issue happens only in zMUD. Repeat, ONLY IN ZMUD. It does not happen when I use a basic telnet client, or any other MUD client.

I would like to clearify that I'm not complaining about this. As I've stated, it's only a minor annoyance. I'm simply stating that I have noticed the same kind of problem that other people have reported. Since other people have reported the same thing, or nearly the same thing, it is something that should be looked into to be possibly fixed in a later version. But, for god's sake people, stop trying to pass the blame off on something else. I wouldn't be posting anything if I wasn't fairly sure that the problem lies within zMUD somewhere.
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Rorso
Wizard


Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:27 pm   
 
You have to understand that many people doubt on Zugg's ability to make a coding mistake. The fun thing is that people with this problem say that it happens on more than one MUD while a lot of people don't have the issue at all.

Assuming that it is zMUD that has the issue though you have to ask yourself a few questions. Like how much do you idle before it happens? Does zMUD reconnect automatically when it happens?

Other interesting things is if the MUD uses the MCCP or MXP protocol. Especially MCCP could cause a disconnection to happen(if something goes wrong it simply disconnects). Remember that standard telnet supports neither of those protocols.

Then again the other people that reported the issue didn't have MCCP enabled MUDs it seems.

Have you modified the network stack in any way? That is are you using something like libpcap/ethereal?
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Talahaski
Enchanter


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 656
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:09 pm   
 
You mentioned that "...And to clearify, it's not THAT often that it happens."

Are you sure it does not happen using telnet, perhaps your just not staying connected long enough or at the right time to tell when you use telnet. Perhaps, if your allowed, connect using zmud to your mud, then also connect another chatacter using telnet to the same mud. keep both sessions open and see if you get disconnected.

I have found that whenever i get disconnected it from my ISP swapping/reassigning virtual IP addresses which causes my internet connection to go down for a few seconds. This used to happen about once a month, but has been happening a lot less.
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Vorax
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jun 2001
Posts: 198
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:07 pm   
 
quote:
Assuming that it is zMUD that has the issue though you have to ask yourself a few questions. Like how much do you idle before it happens? Does zMUD reconnect automatically when it happens?
Idle anywhere between 2 to 10 minutes. zMUD doesn't automatically reconnect as I have disabled that feature.
quote:
Other interesting things is if the MUD uses the MCCP or MXP protocol.
No, my MUD doesn't support these protocols.
quote:
Have you modified the network stack in any way?
No.
quote:
Are you sure it does not happen using telnet, perhaps your just not staying connected long enough or at the right time to tell when you use telnet.
Yes, I'm sure. I've tested it several times using a regular telnet connection and again using WinTin.
quote:
Perhaps, if your allowed, connect using zmud to your mud, then also connect another chatacter using telnet to the same mud. keep both sessions open and see if you get disconnected.
Multi-playing isn't allowed.

Any other information anyone want?
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Vijilante
SubAdmin


Joined: 18 Nov 2001
Posts: 5182

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:45 pm   
 
Since your an immortal on your mud I am certain you can state a case to have 2 characters connected and idling for testing purposes. Likely you don't even have to state a case and could just do it.

Whether you can do that or not I am interested to see a tracert log from before disconnection and after the disconnect. This was suggested by Zugg in the other thread that spawned this one. Feel free to remove a line or 3 from both, so long as you indicate such. Generally the first line is the only one that specifically contains your ip, and the next 2 are still within the domain of your ISP's local system. So it is understandable to remove such personal information, but those logs would eliminate network routers as an issue.
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Vorax
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jun 2001
Posts: 198
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:50 am   
 
quote:
Since your an immortal on your mud I am certain you can state a case to have 2 characters connected and idling for testing purposes. Likely you don't even have to state a case and could just do it.
Yes, I could do this if I wanted to get deleted. We have a strict "no multi-playing" policy. I'll see if I can produce one of these tracert logs.
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mr_kent
Enchanter


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 698

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:08 pm   
 
Something weird is going on here. TMC shows the login screen for this mud when testing, but I am unable to connect directly with both vanilla telnet and zMUD. I wasn't able to connect through the direct connection link on TMC either.

I tested the connections to ten random muds listed on TMC and ten more through the list supplied with zMUD. All connected properly.

tracert timesout and ping shows nothing.
DNS lookup shows same IP as shown here and on TMC page.

I tried to navigate to this mud's website from the link on mudconnector too. I get a blank window. This might be because of my browser's security settings, but I've never seen such a bad implementation of mudconnecting/website in ten years of mudding. Anybody else care to test? If something isn't totally whacked with my computer/ISP/zMUD/browser which is certainly a possibility, I wouldn't care to connect to this mud because of the hassle factor.

mud.finalchallenge.net 4000
telnet 65.39.69.26 4000

http://www.mudconnector.com/mud-bin/simple_search.cgi?Mode=MUD&mud=The+Final+Challenge

I don't know what else to try here.
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Rorso
Wizard


Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:34 pm   
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_kent

Something weird is going on here. TMC shows the login screen for this mud when testing, but I am unable to connect directly with both vanilla telnet and zMUD. I wasn't able to connect through the direct connection link on TMC either.

I tested the connections to ten random muds listed on TMC and ten more through the list supplied with zMUD. All connected properly.

tracert timesout and ping shows nothing.
DNS lookup shows same IP as shown here and on TMC page.

I tried to navigate to this mud's website from the link on mudconnector too. I get a blank window. This might be because of my browser's security settings, but I've never seen such a bad implementation of mudconnecting/website in ten years of mudding. Anybody else care to test? If something isn't totally whacked with my computer/ISP/zMUD/browser which is certainly a possibility, I wouldn't care to connect to this mud because of the hassle factor.

mud.finalchallenge.net 4000
telnet 65.39.69.26 4000

http://www.mudconnector.com/mud-bin/simple_search.cgi?Mode=MUD&mud=The+Final+Challenge

I don't know what else to try here.



I think it is called a routing issue Smile. I assume you get some of the route listed using 'tracert'?. It is pretty common nowadays that people firewall out 'ping' which means that the route suddenly seems to go into a black hole when using tracert.
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Pega
Magician


Joined: 08 Jan 2001
Posts: 341
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:58 pm   
 
I stayed connected with your mud - mud.finalchallenge.net:4000 and my usual mud, both with maximum of 260 seconds of idle time. Guess what, I get mysteriously disconnected by your mud after 2 hours, and i am still connected with my usual mud.

Perhaps there is some network setting, mud server setting or an immortal with itchy fingers. For the 5+ years I have been using zMUD I have not noticed any disconnection problems with it.

I used to stay connected as a normal player to my usual mud 24hrs a day using zMUD with no problems. I think I have over 16k hours logged, between two characters over 7 years.
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LightBulb
MASTER


Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 4817
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:45 pm   
 
Let's please try to keep answers on topic and not turn this into a flame war.

I'm well aware that a 'disconnection' problem exists. I've seen it reported many times over the past few years and usually with the claim that the generic telnet client has no problems. Zugg has doubtless seen even more reports of this, since some people report problems only by email. However, Zugg states unequivocally that zMUD is not, and cannot, be the problem. I see no reason to disbelieve him.

From what Zugg said in the earlier post, zMUD doesn't monitor your connection directly. It relies on the Windows WINSOCK library for this. That means it only knows the connection has been broken when Windows informs it, and Windows apparently doesn't inform it of a broken connection until an attempt to use that connection fails.

In all fairness, Windows probably isn't aware the connection is broken until an attempt to use it fails. After all, Windows doesn't see this as a busy MUD, it sees your connection as a source of intermittent two-way traffic. Either side is free to pause for any length of time, so lack of incoming data doesn't indicate a problem. A problem will only be detected when a failure is reported somewhere along the line. This can only happen from your output. A report based on the MUD's output will occur on the other side of the break and will never reach you, for the same reason the MUD output doesn't reach you.

This does not lead me to the conclusion that the fault lies with zMUD. Since zMUD is relying on another program to provide the actual connection, it is limited to the capabilities of that program. The fault, if there is one, lies in that program. You can certainly attempt to convince Microsoft that their WINSOCK library has a deficiency in its ability to maintain persistent connections and that they should provide a fix for it. If you do, I hope you succeed since we would all benefit.

This does lead me to the conclusion that the generic telnet client probably isn't relying on the WINSOCK library, but more likely has its own code to handle the connection. Part of that code may allow it to renegotiate the connection when the existing path fails or it might be sending periodic periodic checks which aren't displayed at either end but are sufficient to keep the route active. Of course, this is merely speculation on my part and nobody should take it as fact.

Several people have made reasonable suggestions, which you have rejected sarcastically. If you're really interested in finding a solution, as opposed to merely venting, you should try some of those suggestions.
quote:
I don't have access to these (the server log files), or any other of the MUD's files.

You can ask someone who does to let you have a look at them, with an explanation of why you want to. The worst that's likely to happen is that you'll be told no.
quote:
Explain why this doesn't happen when I use telnet or WinTin?

See my speculation above.
quote:
Why do I need to keep my session alive when idling does not, I repeat, DOES NOT, cause me to get disconnected.

You don't need to. You are perfectly free to continue enduring the disconnections instead.
Your entire complaint is that idling does, I repeat, DOES, cause you to get disconnected. Creating a simple alarm to send data while you idle is a reasonable solution. This won't prevent the disconnections if they are the result of route-changes (rather than idling), but it will bring them to your attention faster.
quote:
Yes, I could do this (ask for permission to have two characters active for testing) if I wanted to get deleted. We have a strict "no multi-playing" policy.

You aren't likely to be deleted for merely asking for permission to have a one-time, closely monitored, multiplaying session for the sole purpose of idling in an attempt to troubleshoot/resolve a persistent problem. You may be told no, but a mere request should not be enough to cause deletion.

Zugg and others have suggested using TRACERT to check your route. You should do so. You might also use NETSTAT to track your open connections.
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Vorax
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jun 2001
Posts: 198
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:25 pm   
 
quote:
I tried to navigate to this mud's website from the link on mudconnector too. I get a blank window.
The site has recently been through some redesign and some of the pages were moved. I'm betting that the address at TMC wasn't updated. http://www.finalchallenge.net/tfc/toc.php

Did anyone attempt to log in with a character named "Testing"?
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Pega
Magician


Joined: 08 Jan 2001
Posts: 341
Location: Singapore

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 10:37 pm   
 
Not me, I had a decent name.
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LightBulb
MASTER


Joined: 28 Nov 2000
Posts: 4817
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:27 am   
 
No, I haven't attempted to login to The Final Challenge. I did use 'Test Connection' at TMC without a problem.
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