Zugg Software :: View topic

Beginner Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 18 Location: USA

Hi,

I'm a builder on sneezy (sneezy.saw.net 7900) and there's been some talk about expanding and re-arranging the world because things are too cramped and enviroment don't always make sense with those in proximity. My take on the whole thing is that we need a graphical map of the world and a proposed map of the new world if we are to make things better. I'm not an artist, so I've been looking for something that would help me take zmud or pencil maps and build a reasonable photograph of the globe.

It seems that if AC Explorer could work with a zmud map and allow me to assign things as buildings, trails, roads, various type of terrain or whatever, this would be a tremendous help.

So, is AC Explorer extensible or do any of you know of some software that might help
Thanks,

Jimbus@usa.com

PS: Come try sneezy, its a groud up custom diku. Its a bitter more challenging than a lot, but its a friendly, non-pk atmosphere

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

I think what you are looking for is zMapper. It is designed to extend zMud maps as far as a person can imagine (and spend time creating). Currently AC Explorer is dedicated to the Asheron's Call game.

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:24 pm

Also, there is zExplorer which is a more extensible version of AC Explorer that works with games other than Asheron's Call. zExplorer is compatible with zMapper and will also work with some server scripts that I'm writing so that you can set up your own map server on the Internet.

As Vijilante mentioned, AC Explorer is only for Asheron's Call, so you need to look at zMapper and zExplorer instead.

Beginner Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 18 Location: USA

Ok,

I'm struggling here[V]. I downloaded zMapper and spent 3-4 hours drawing a map only to find that everything is labor intensive, nothing is logical, theres a lot of features that don't work properly and theres legacy from the zMud mapper. So I down load zExplorer and tried to use the map I had created, but it locks up the loader. After I kill the loader, there's no option to start a new file.

As for zMapper:
- you need more hot keys for frequently used commands.
- took me a long time to figure out that elongated rooms would not work well as roads and I would have to build everything from bit maps
- there needs to be better tools for building repetive things like roads
-its a cube world I can't make the bitmap drawings connect well on the diagonal rooms.
-the color picker doesn't remember colors once used. I tried manipulating the numbers to round number to make it easer to copy them, but once you change a number, 2-4 of the other 5 change.
-the click twice method for roads is conter intuitive, I still try to drag and drop about 1/3.
-there should be a repetation check that allow you to put down many rooms or roads with out touching the toolbar between each.
-I'm not sure how the speed walking menu picks apply to a stand alone mapping product.
-I'd like to be able to work in an outside bitmap editor, to create a library, and then import them... I'm not sure what file format that is you import.

On top of this, I could not import all my work into zExplorer, it get to 1/4 mark and gives an error: "objtbl: type mismatch, was expecting wiseString Actual: Memo

I'm fairly tick at the moment, but I tried to give constructive feed back. I love zMud, but I've always struggled with you mappers (the one that comes with the current beta won't pick out the room names, I think because they end up on the same line as the preceding prompt and picks out exits in the description, even though I specify there are o a new line and start with "blah..."). All I really want is something to take a zMud map, or a hand created map, and create a reasonable world map with city and zone locations, major roads... and look sort of like a draw map with generic terrain (mountain, dessert, glacier...), roads (brick, dirt...), cities (small, medium, large) and some objects (castles, forts, dragons...) in a gif-type format. If I can make different levels of detail, say city maps, like I tried to put together, that'd be great. But this is a world with 245 zones and 15007 rooms... and growing.

Thanks for your time,

Jimbus

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:51 pm

Well, I guess the first comment that needs to be repeated is that both zMapper and zExplorer are BETA versions. And even with that, these products are still relatively new, especially compared to the 7 years of development that zMUD has had.

With that said, make sure you are using both the latest versions of zMapper and zExplorer...they should be compatible. However, if you use the latest version of zMUD, zMUD will update the map database format and will not be compatible with zMapper or zExplorer until I release the next version of these two programs, which is what I'm currently working on.

Regarding the specific comments (which you should number in the future to make it easier to respond to):

- stuff like hot keys comes later in the development process. Right now I'm more concerned with actually getting stuff working at a basic level.
- Roads are not destinations, so obviously you wouldn't use a room as a road. A road should be done using a "link" or "exit" between other locations. Or, if you just want the road to appear graphically and not be involved in any sort of map structure, then you can just draw it using a graphical shape. You shouldn't need to use a bitmap for a road.
- Depends. zMapper is intended for creating "structured" maps, not just pretty pictures. For a structured map, you would use an exit for a road and add bends to the exit to represent the bends in a road. Yes, all of this will get easier to use as zMapper is more developed, but right now it's not that hard to create an exit and add bends to it.
- Not sure what you mean by "cube world". Diagonal exits are drawn from the corners of the "square" for the room...doesn't matter what your bitmap looks like.
- The "color picker" is just the standard Microsoft color selection component, and I have little control over it, but over time I might replace this with my own color picker. I don't know what "numbers" you are talking about, but again, this is just the standard Microsoft color picker and I don't have any way to change how it works.
- Drag/drop will be added in the future. But it will always be preferred to click twice. The reason click-twice is used is to allow you to more easily scroll the map or select another zone. With drag/drop there is no way to link to a room in a different zone, for example. So, this might just be something you need to get used to.
- You can already do this. Just hold the Shift key when you click the toolbar icon (for a room, exit, etc) and then you can just keep clicking on the map to add new ones without using the toolbar again.
- zMapper/zExplorer don't have speedwalking in the same sense that zMUD does. All zMapper/zExplorer can do it determine the shortest path between rooms using any exits that you define.
- You can import anything in bmp or gif format. It should also handle jpg format, and if it doesn't, it will in the next version. The zMUD bitmap and shape editors also handle copy/paste so you can create stuff in an external editor and just paste it into the zMapper editors.

Regarding the zMUD mapper...it is very customizeable. If it's not picking out the room name, then you need to add some #TAG triggers to fix this. The Gurus in the zMUD forums can help more with this.

For something with 245 zones and 15007 rooms, you certainly do NOT want to use zMapper to manually create this. You should use zMUD to create the map as you move around the MUD, or use some of the Import features in zMapper to import your data or the zMUD scripting features to create the maps via a script.

Beginner Joined: 28 Jan 2002 Posts: 18 Location: USA

Perhaps, I'm just need some general guidance, then. If this isn't the proper forum for that, we can take to off-line or to another forum. I gues I'm not sure what I should be expecting from this product or how I should go about mapping.

as for some more clarification on the original points:

quote:
Originally posted by Zugg

Roads are not destinations, so obviously you wouldn't use a room as a road. A road should be done using a "link" or "exit" between other locations. Or, if you just want the road to appear graphically and not be involved in any sort of map structure, then you can just draw it using a graphical shape. You shouldn't need to use a bitmap for a road.

2) Roads are rooms, at least on Sneezy. Roads in towns and between zones all have exits, mobiles and descriptions. They show up as rooms when using zmud's automapper.

quote:
- Depends. zMapper is intended for creating "structured" maps, not just pretty pictures. For a structured map, you would use an exit for a road and add bends to the exit to represent the bends in a road. Yes, all of this will get easier to use as zMapper is more developed, but right now it's not that hard to create an exit and add bends to it.

3) Grimhaven, the starting city and my only target for hand mapping, is shaped like and octagon with with inner and outer permiter roads around a city wall and quadrasecting n-s/e-w main roads. Like your temple example, I wanted to make the exits disappear and have the contiguous road rooms appears appear connected. this works in the vertical and horizonal, but not on the diagonal. While it is structural, the temple example also presents itself as a pretty picture and is the only yardstick I have of this product(not a snide comment, really:).

In fact, while looking through the zmapper product page for another bullet point I foundthat the temple complex map does exactly this, only none of your roads run diagonally. Though I see that you might be using bitmaps instead of room shapes.

quote:
- Not sure what you mean by "cube world". Diagonal exits are drawn from the corners of the "square" for the room...doesn't matter what your bitmap looks like.

4) When you move your example to a larger map, it becomes hexagonal and sneezy wouldn't work while in a hexagonal system. Atleast, I may not currently able to wrap my mind around how the would work. Sneezy take pride in being gridded, that is; reguardless of the description, all rooms are one size and must fit in real space on a map grid. This isn't always true, but it is mostly always true.

quote:
- The "color picker" is just the standard Microsoft color selection component, and I have little control over it, but over time I might replace this with my own color picker. I don't know what "numbers" you are talking about, but again, this is just the standard Microsoft color picker and I don't have any way to change how it works.

5) Yes, but... There are inputs and dbs that should be passed between instances of the picker. When I open the shape editor and create a custom color for a shape, I shouldn't have to recreate the color when I change the outline, Likewise, I shouldn't have to recreate my custom colors when I move to a new room.

The numbers I was referencing were the R, G, B, intensity, etc... to have consistant room colors, I was going to write them down and enter them by hand to get consistant custum colors. When I tried to force them to end in 5's or 0's to facilitate the process, each time you change on, it adjusts another. Annoying, but not your issue :).

quote:
- Drag/drop will be added in the future. But it will always be preferred to click twice. The reason click-twice is used is to allow you to more easily scroll the map or select another zone. With drag/drop there is no way to link to a room in a different zone, for example. So, this might just be something you need to get used to.

6) Okay, your point is sound :).

quote:
- You can already do this. Just hold the Shift key when you click the toolbar icon (for a room, exit, etc) and then you can just keep clicking on the map to add new ones without using the toolbar again.

7) Sweet

quote:
- zMapper/zExplorer don't have speedwalking in the same sense that zMUD does. All zMapper/zExplorer can do it determine the shortest path between rooms using any exits that you define.

8) So its a feature, not legacy code, my bad :).

quote:
- You can import anything in bmp or gif format. It should also handle jpg format, and if it doesn't, it will in the next version. The zMUD bitmap and shape editors also handle copy/paste so you can create stuff in an external editor and just paste it into the zMapper editors.

I was trying to dso this in the shap editor and it seems I maybe be doing to much with the room shape.

quote:
Regarding the zMUD mapper...it is very customizeable. If it's not picking out the room name, then you need to add some #TAG triggers to fix this. The Gurus in the zMUD forums can help more with this.

Many people on the mud ahve had great success with the embedded mapper, so I figured it was mostly me. but this latest version is giving me more fits than most. I'll check into the zmud forum.

quote:
For something with 245 zones and 15007 rooms, you certainly do NOT want to use zMapper to manually create this. You should use zMUD to create the map as you move around the MUD, or use some of the Import features in zMapper to import your data or the zMUD scripting features to create the maps via a script.

This was my intention. I was doing Grimhaven by hand... from memory, but was going to import maps for the rest. My intention is to have some detailed city maps and then create a world map with terrain and roads. Something like you might see in a fantasy novel. My point was that it seemed like to take a zmud world map and individually adjust all the rooms (and the number would be considerably smaller because many of the rooms are not at surface level) would be prohibitive, if I couldn't build a set of tools to facilitate. But like I said at the begining, I'm probably missing some basic concepts.

Again, I am trying to offerhelpful input and I hope this isn't too much of a hassle...

Jimbus

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 8:35 pm

On the roads and diagonal stuff, what I have usually done when the road is an actual "room" on the MUD is to go ahead and connect the road "rooms" like normal, but then shrink them down so that the room size is very small. If you get them small enough, then they blend in with the exits and form a continuous line. This allows you to "stop" along the way as you move along the road, but relies on the exits to connect the rooms rather than trying to stretch the room. Stretching the room won't work with diagonal roads, as you mentioned. So let the exit lines do the work for you.

You are working on the cutting edge here. There are not very many users of zMapper yet and I'm just now getting back into it myself after a whole year of zMUD programming. So, I'm sure that there is a lot of tweaking needed for this product. Right now it's just a matter of experimentation to see what the best way to do things is since the only documentation is the tutorials.

Finally, yes, since this topic is all about zMapper and zMUD, any further questions should probably be posted to the zMapper forum.