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Rorso
Wizard
Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368
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 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:40 pm
cMUD Package Library feedback
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As mentioned in the thread at http://forums.zuggsoft.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31243 it would be nice with a separate package library feedback thread.
"In my opinion the library works poorly. At least for me. It updates slow, it put its window in the center during update on top of all other windows so you can't even read websites during update as it block the view. It is complicated to find what you look for. Of course the library idea is very nice but I think there's room for improvements.
You want a better connection between the MUD list and the library. When you click to view the library you want to see what is available on the MUDs you are currently connected to. It is unlikely you really bother about someMud2 that you do not play. It should show updates available. Take a look at Firefox3 how it handles addons." |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:00 pm
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I'll take a look at the Firefox3 addons. The current package library is somewhat based upon how their addon web site worked in Firefox 2, but I understand that they have improved this a lot in v3.
Right now there isn't any connection between the MUD list and the library, and I agree that is needed. Either by title or by hostname. The MUD Connector only allows a single hostname for each MUD, and the MUD Title is a unique field. If the player is using a hostname that isn't in the MUD Connector list, then the package library could just show everything like it already does now.
It already shows the updates available. Check the Status selection in the Filter list on the left. Filter on Installed packages and then you'll see an indicator next to each package showing what updates are available.
Unlike with Firefox, I am not comfortable doing any sort of "automatic update" procedure. If I was using a package, I'd be really worried that an update my break my scripts. So I'll want to only download updates and test them when I have time. I wouldn't want CMUD automatically updating everything and then possibly breaking my session in the middle.
I actually worry about this with Firefox updates too, but so far the people updating their addons have been pretty good about quality control and I haven't had any update break anything yet. But maybe I've just been lucky. But I don't trust your average package/script developer to be so careful.
| Quote: |
| It is complicated to find what you look for. |
You'll need to be much more specific about this. Just saying "it's complicated" doesn't help me. There are search fields on the left that seem to be pretty obvious and easy to use, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.
Please give specific and constructive suggestions on what you want improved. |
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Rorso
Wizard
Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:33 pm
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| Zugg wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It is complicated to find what you look for. |
You'll need to be much more specific about this. Just saying "it's complicated" doesn't help me. There are search fields on the left that seem to be pretty obvious and easy to use, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.
Please give specific and constructive suggestions on what you want improved. |
Well essentially it is tough to define it. I know it when I see it ;). It is a bit like trying to define what "user friendly" is.
My opinion is that the package library ought to display packages that are available to the MUDs you play. They ought to be sorted on popularity. That is the more people that use a specific plugin the higher ranking it ought to get. Probably some kind of blending between the rating and download count.
Also if you have downloaded e.g map packages before then related downloads should get prioritized in the listing. You could even try to do it across sessions so that if a user is interested in maps for mud A then he would also be offered downloads for maps on mud B, but of course maps on mud A would be prioritized while logged in to that MUD.
I think each category might benefit to have an icon associated with it. At least some main categories and I hope it would give a quicker overview. For example a package that help you use the mapper better for a MUD would have a small map displayed to the left of it.
Anyway right now when you open the package library you get this very huge list shown. There is no categorization from the start, no filtering to show the MUDs that cMUD believes you are interested in. What I try to suggest is that the package library should try to suggest what to fetch. Also it might be a good idea for it to remember the last grouping/filter you had last time before you restarted cMUD.
Also when looking at the window right now there are some other problems/confusions that arise:
* "Compatible version"-checkbox. What is this? The UI doesn't explain it to me and I have no idea what kind of filtering that does. Compatible with what? Looking at the help file "Shared Package Library" does not explain it either, though it should probably be obvious from the UI alone.
* Too small combo boxes. E.g the category combobox has the item "Automated Inventory" but part of the text is clipped so it becomes, "Automated Invento". Similar with "Complete Script Libraries"
* F1 doesn't show help. |
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Tech
GURU
Joined: 18 Oct 2000
Posts: 2733
Location: Atlanta, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:36 pm
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I don't have a problem with package library speeds at all, but I'm usually on a high speed connection anyway. I have had some issues in the past uploading packages (in much earlier versions), and recently opened an bug report on that (C'mon version 2.31)  These types of things are the biggest concern for me. If I do a complex but it doesn't get uploaded and downloaded they way I expect it to, then it will be hard for to get a sense of the end-user experience and undermines the whole idea of the library.
One potential problem I see coming in the future, is in advertising/explaining what a script really does. I'm not sure if everyone (anyone) really reads the descriptions, and it can be hard to capture the essence of more UI centric or complex packages with just the text description. We could probably maintain our own websites for packages like Larkin does but that may be beyond the reach of some. In terms of bandwidth and support, I'm not sure if Zugg can take the Firefox approach of giving webspace for pictures and more in-depth descriptions.
I don't think mine are that complex but things like Larkin's curing system or Viji's toolbox need quite a bit more.
The comments field can be used to ask the package author questions, or put in feature requests; but I'm not sure if package authors are notified when their packages receive comments, that would be something else to consider.
In case this all seems a bit harsh (I'm sure you're wondering where was this feedback before) I think I speak for many if not all when I say the package library is pretty good right, but with a few tweaks it can be so much more. I think the lack of feedback on that area to this point has to do with the relatively small beta testing pools. The testers are typically coders themselves and typically bang against areas in their own scripting and highlight so other bang on those areas as well. It's kind of a good milestone for CMUD. It's now gotten to the point that it does all the things we want they we expect it, or it's supposed, to work. Now we can focus on distributing those scripts which now turns our collective attention to the package library. |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:49 pm
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| Quote: |
| "Compatible version"-checkbox. What is this? |
When someone creates a package and uploads it to the library, they are able to set a minimum and maximum version of CMUD required for the package. For example, if the package uses a feature that was added to CMUD v2.0, then can set 2.0 as the minimum version. When you check the "Compatible" checkbox, only packages that work for your specific version of CMUD are shown. So if you were using v1.34, you would see any packages that require v2.0.
But yes, this is a relatively new feature that hasn't made it into the documentation yet. Typical problem with no time to work on the documentation.
| Quote: |
| Too small combo boxes. |
Hmm, there was supposed to be a resize bar between the filter panel and the main package list, but it doesn't seem to be there anymore. I'll add that to the bug list. Then you can just resize it to make the combo boxes larger.
| Quote: |
| F1 doesn't show help. |
I'll add that to the list.
| Quote: |
| I think each category might benefit to have an icon associated with it. |
It's a good idea, but I'm not sure how to implement it. Right now you can enter *anything* into the category field when you upload a package. This lets people create their own categories. So there isn't any fixed "system-defined" set of categories that I can create icons for. But maybe I can do it for a few of the obvious categories now that they have already been defined (like the mapper).
| Quote: |
| My opinion is that the package library ought to display packages that are available to the MUDs you play. |
Yes, we talked about that. I agree with you, but until I connect the MUD Name field in the package library with the MUD Title field in the MUD connector list then there is no way for the package editor to know what MUD you are currently playing
I'll definitely rank by the "rating" field (for those that have gotten enough votes). Not sure there is any good way to combine the download count and the rating into a "popularity" index. I've seen web sites try to do that and fail horribly. I'd rather just let the user click on the column they want to sort by, just like in any other program or web site.
Now I just need people to start *using* the rating capability! |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:50 pm
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Btw, I wonder if part of the problem is that "Library" is the wrong word for this. Maybe people think of a "Library" as containing information, like help or documentation. Maybe I should use the same term as Firefox and call it "Add-ons" or something like that?
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Rorso
Wizard
Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:56 pm
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| Tech wrote: |
I don't have a problem with package library speeds at all, but I'm usually on a high speed connection anyway.
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The speed issue I get is actually after the download. Somehow the SQL update is running too slow. It is a bit of a mystery as everyone else seem to get a good update experience.
| Quote: |
I think the lack of feedback on that area to this point has to do with the relatively small beta testing pools. |
There is a need to get both more beta testers, and more MUD players  . Though I guess that is a discussion for another thread  .
| Quote: |
It's kind of a good milestone for CMUD. It's now gotten to the point that it does all the things we want they we expect it, or it's supposed, to work. Now we can focus on distributing those scripts which now turns our collective attention to the package library. |
I got yet a suggestion :-). I think it has been mentioned before: Package dependency. A package in Fedora Linux for example can be dependant on other packages. Those packages might in their turn depend on other packages. Say you Tech make a set of script functions for a MUD you like that do some calculation. You could provide other scripters to use the functions, thus creating a package that depend on your package. So when installing a package the library would also install the packages that it depend son, as well as the packages those packages depend on. When uninstalling a package the library would check if any other package that is installed depends on it, and if so it would strongly advise you to allow it to remove that package as well.
And also you should perhaps be able to link to the library in your browser somehow. Perhaps it would cause a download of a special link file that is associated to cMUD. E.g techPackage.cMUDPackage would only contain a guid that when opened by cMUD cause package dialogue to open up and offer to install the package. That way you could link to packages in your posts here on the forum. |
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Last edited by Rorso on Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Tech
GURU
Joined: 18 Oct 2000
Posts: 2733
Location: Atlanta, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:58 pm
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That may be part of it. I knew what it is, because I was around when the idea cropped up. I'm not sure if I would have thought to look there otherwise.
In terms of helping to ensure uploads and downloads, maybe CMUD could do a hash or size check, so that it can confirm what is sent, exactly what is received. |
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Arde
Enchanter
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 605
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:37 pm
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I would like to see the Library window uses less eyes irritating colors  Normally CMUD uses soft but contrast colors for its interface everywhere, but there are 2 places where this rule is not working. One of them is the Package Library.
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Fang Xianfu
GURU
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5155
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:06 pm
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| Zugg wrote: |
| Maybe I should use the same term as Firefox and call it "Add-ons" or something like that? |
Perhaps just labelling the buttons "Download Packages" or something instead of "Library"? Then it does exactly what it says on the tin. |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:10 pm
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| Quote: |
| The comments field can be used to ask the package author questions |
Almost, but not quite. The comment field within the package library is currently restricted to a single comment per user. This is because the comment is also used for the rating and I wanted to restrict a single rating per person. Basically, the comment is supposed to be to comment on the quality of the package and not to ask questions. Of course, most people are using it to ask questions.
What I intend to do in the future is to create a new Packages forum where each package can have a support thread. This is similar to how MODs are handled in other systems (like phpbb mods). Then I can add a URL in the package library to point to the support thread for the package. I never intended the Comments section stored in the library to be a full interactive forum support thread...just a simple list of comments.
| Quote: |
| I think it has been mentioned before: Package dependency. |
Yes, that has been mentioned before and is on the list. But it currently requires a fair amount of work and haven't had time for it. It will certainly be required for any good system of automatically loading packages. But it's going to have to wait until after the mapper stuff.
| Quote: |
| And also you should perhaps be able to link to the library in your browser somehow. |
Yes, Fang has asked for that in the future. As soon as I can figure out how to define my own "protocol" and browser helper-app, then I can create an association with the cmudpkg:// kind of link. I just haven't had time to research how to do this yet. I was mainly waiting until I had time to write the web-based view of the package library (where you can browse the package library from your browser, then click a link to install the package into CMUD).
| Quote: |
| I would like to see the Library window uses less eyes irritating colors |
The package library uses the same "blue" theme as the rest of CMUD. Tell me more exactly what colors are not working properly and be sure to mention what "Theme" you have selected in your main session window. And if you said that there are "2 places" where this isn't working, then tell me the other place too...I can't read your mind so don't be so cryptic please.
| Quote: |
| Perhaps just labelling the buttons "Download Packages" |
That's too long for the caption of the main toolbar button I'm afraid. I need something short like the other buttons on the toolbar. |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:18 pm
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Some of these are replies to comments about the package library in the other thread on automatic downloading of packages.
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| Just make sure it says "Currently showing packages for YourMud" |
Maybe I need to think of a way to make it more obvious, but the name of the MUD would be shown in the MUD Filter dropdown box in the filter panel. I'd like to figure out how to teach people how to use this filter panel. Seems obvious to me, but apparently people are having trouble with it.
I noticed when playing with the Package Library today (yes, see, now I'm distracted by this stuff) that the MUD field wasn't even being shown anywhere in the main list. There were columns for Author, Count, Rating, etc, but nothing for MUD. That was bad. So I actually improved the display so that the Name of the package takes up the entire first line, and then the Mud, Author, Count, Rating, etc is on a second line, then the description. This makes each entry 4 lines instead of 3, but it allows for longer package names instead of trying to squeeze everything on one line, and now it makes the MUD more obvious.
I have also modified the package library so that it saves the filters, sort order, and grouping. When you load the package library for the first time, it is grouped by MUD and sorted by Rating. This should help a bit with the information overload.
The only tricky part is that I'm not sure it will be obvious to a new user how to "ungroup" the list by MUD. You will be able to see the group button pushed in next to the MUD dropdown box, and you can also control the grouping from the view menu. So we just need to teach more people how to use this.
Oh, and yes, I've fixed F1 in v2.31 so that it opens the help page for the package library. |
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Arde
Enchanter
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 605
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:13 pm
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| Zugg wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I would like to see the Library window uses less eyes irritating colors |
The package library uses the same "blue" theme as the rest of CMUD. Tell me more exactly what colors are not working properly and be sure to mention what "Theme" you have selected in your main session window. And if you said that there are "2 places" where this isn't working, then tell me the other place too...I can't read your mind so don't be so cryptic please.
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Ok, I was talking about colors used for packages list. I've made a screenshot so you can see how other CMUD windows are looks like and compare them with PL.
I have the "Offece XP" theme selected in my main session window. Interestingly, if you uncheck in the PL window the "Show description" option, the colors for packages list will be a way more comfortable.
The second issue is a page header color in the help window - I put the red circle around it. |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:39 pm
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Hmm, that's really strange. Here is what 2.30 looks like on my system (with the same OfficeXP theme selected):
What version of Windows are you running? Maybe it's an XP vs Vista difference somehow? |
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Arde
Enchanter
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 605
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:59 pm
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Windows XP SP2 (5.1.2600)
It is not the 2.30 problem, I saw the same colors from the time of my first CMUD installation (it was 2.03 then). And the help window got that yellow font somewhere around new year version rush (if I remember it correctly), it was too minor to report about.
What I've noticed on your screenshot is that font color for package names in the list is the same as your active window font color. Ok, this is the only tweak I have to default windows screen setup: my active window caption color is set to yellow instead of white. May be this is somehow related to the problem discussed. But again, if I uncheck in the PL window the "Show description" option, then I'll get pretty same colors that you have except line highlighting color - it is still bright yellow. |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:30 pm
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Yep, that's it. CMUD colors the headers in the package library using the system colors CaptionText (for the text color) and GradientActiveCaption (for the background). The line highlight color is your Window system "Highlight" color.
When the ShowDescription is turned off, then there isn't any "header" for each item...so it's just a standard list which gets a hard-coded light-blue background from the OfficeXP theme. On when Show Descriptions is ON does the grid use the Windows system colors to set the headings.
So yes, it sounds like you have changed your Windows system colors, and CMUD is properly using those colors. Not sure there is really anything I can do about that.
Edited: You were correct about the Help form...it was using the CaptionText color instead of the WindowText color. |
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Arde
Enchanter
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 605
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:51 pm
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Heh, it is the first time I regret that CMUD is more standard application then zMUD. 
Thanks for your reply!
ADDED: Btw, the only list control that uses window caption text color is in CMUD. I can't remember any other color troubles with any list controls on my system.
ADDED-2: Still can't get black text for help window. Definitely I don't want to set win caption text color to black!  |
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Last edited by Arde on Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:29 pm
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Well, someday in the future when I restore some sort of "theme" system, then you'll have more control over it. The OfficeXP theme is something that is built into the DevExpress controls, and that's the only reason it's still listed in the Theme menu. But their own DevExpress Grid component (which is what is used in the Package Library) doesn't actually use their own theme system properly. Mainly because a Grid (and also their Tree) has *so* many different colors and styles that they let me change. And I didn't want to hard-code any colors as much as possible.
So, for the grid and tree backgrounds, I am able to pull in their OfficeXP theme background color. But there isn't anything in their theme for grid "headings" like the package editor needs. So I just used the Windows system colors instead.
I've already complained to them that their Grid and Tree components don't properly handle their "Theme/Skin" system, but their response is that there are more colors/styles for a Grid/Tree than the Skin system can handle. Well yes, I can see that this is true, but it makes their Theme/Skin system pretty useless for real applications, which is why I haven't spend any time really implementing it and have postponed any further theme/skin work until they improve their components. |
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Arde
Enchanter
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 605
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:39 pm
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Yeah, now I understand why these strange things happen... Thanks for info!
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My personal bug|wish list:
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:13 pm
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Rorso: I might have found something that would slow down the package update. Was it fast in processing the Authors, MUDs, and Categories (according to the messages on the status bar at the bottom when it's updating the library), and just slow when processing Packages? If so, then this might have fixed it for 2.32.
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Rorso
Wizard
Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:27 am
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| Zugg wrote: |
| Rorso: I might have found something that would slow down the package update. Was it fast in processing the Authors, MUDs, and Categories (according to the messages on the status bar at the bottom when it's updating the library), and just slow when processing Packages? If so, then this might have fixed it for 2.32. |
The entire process seem to be quite slow. The harddrive seem to be working a lot during the update. Maybe it is improved in the new version of sqlite? |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:49 pm
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Let me know how 2.32 works when it is released. Even though I'm telling it to put everything into a single "transaction", it's possible that using the Delphi database controls: DataSet.Append;set fields;DataSet.Post procedure is somehow still forcing disk updates. In the future I might try to change this to use direct SQL statements instead to see if it's better. But it's hard to tell since I don't see any of these kind of slow updates on any of my systems here, so I'm not really sure what is causing it on your system.
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