Zugg Software :: View topic

Magician Joined: 13 Oct 2000 Posts: 463

Open the Settings window (click the Settings button on the main button bar).

Goto an existing trigger, or create a new one.

The Less/More button on the bottom left of the window has little arrows pointing up and down... they point in the opposite direction from what you would expect. The words "Less" and "More" are correct, the arrows just point backwards, having the opposite meaning of the word.

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:06 pm

Actually, I think they are correct. When it says "More", the arrow points down and clicking the button opens the panel below.

I've seen several Microsoft apps that have a "More" type of button, usually for a panel that opens on the right, and the arrow for "More" always points to the right.

If someone can think of a Microsoft dialog that does it the other way, let me know.

For example, open Start/Search (find files). Select All Files. Now notice all of the options like "More Advanced Options" and they all have arrows pointing down when the sections are collapsed, and the arrows point up when the section is expanded. So CMUD is working just like that.

Magician Joined: 13 Oct 2000 Posts: 463

The word 'More' is telling you what will happen when the button is clicked. The Arrow is NOT pointing to where the panel will GO when clicked. It is pointing to where the panel IS (down).

In a Microsoft app, the button says 'More', telling you what will happen when the button is clicked, and the Arrow points to where the panel will go when clicked (to the left/open), not where the panel IS (to the right/closed). In some MS apps they kind of fudge it... for example, in the applet 'winipcfg', the arrow points right even though the applet opens down, because that way they could just use >> and << characters rather than having to create graphical up and down arrows.

I have never seen a MS app that has the arrow indicate the current state, but the text indicate the future state. They are always in sync.

Magician Joined: 13 Oct 2000 Posts: 463

I would like to say I have seen apps where the text indicates the current state, along with the arrow... like 'Closed' and 'Open'. But the words and arrow always match in every program I've seen.

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:09 pm

Like I said, if you can find a specific *Microsoft* software dialog that shows that, then let me know. Right now it's implemented the same as all of the Microsoft dialogs that I'm aware of, and that defines the standard as far as I'm concerned.

There is a big debate about toggle buttons and whether or not their text/icon should indicate "state" or indicate what action will be performed when clicked. I'm choosing to implement it the same why Microsoft does, where the button indicates the action and not the state.

So, don't just give me some generic statements about this. Show me specific software and specific examples.

Wizard Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 1113 Location: USA

On the Ctrl-Alt-Del screen when you want to expand it for choosing a domain or checking the dial-up option, the Options button has >> before expansion and << after expansion. It's not up or down, but it gives the hint that you'll be adding/removing part of the dialog in that general direction. If I see any other more specific examples of this, though, I'll let you know. I agree with The Raven, however, that the other direction would be more intuitive to what the button actually is doing.

Magician Joined: 13 Oct 2000 Posts: 463

Yeah, unfortunately I don't have any MSDN type apps (which tend to use that style of widget), and all their consumer widgets that implement arrows have the silly >> means down/open, << means up/closed. May I ask where you saw it used your way Zugg?

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:29 pm

Larkin: Right, so that seems to support what I'm doing. Before the settings dialog is expanded, the icon is a down arrow, indicating you'll be adding part of the dialog in that direction. After expansion it's an up arrow. So that's consistent with what I'm doing.

I think the confusion here is that the dialog that is being expanded/contracted is docked within the settings editor. Try to imagine the editor part as it's own window. The More button is expanding the dialog by adding the advanced stuff at the bottom. The Less button is contracting it and removing the extra panel. But because the editor is docked, it doesn't actually expand or contract in size...instead the advanced panel just appears and disappears.

So think of the Ctrl-Alt-Del screen that Larkin mentioned. When the advanced options are hidden, the button has the >>. When the advanced options are displayed the button is <<. That's the same as the settings editor: when the advanced options are hidden, we have a down-arrow. When the advanced options are displayed, we have an up arrow.

Magician Joined: 13 Oct 2000 Posts: 463

Umm... I think you're getting it backwards Zugg. Those dialogs move in the opposite direction yours does. When your dialog adds something it moves UP. When your dialog goes away it moves down. In the examples from Larkin and I, the button stays still and the bottom of the dialog moves. That's why we think the arrow is backwards, because your dialog moves backwards.

Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:05 pm

Raven, yes I know...that's just what I said above. Because the window is docked, the script section moves up to make room for the advanced panel. Unlike a simple dialog, there is no way to expand the dialog and make it larger when you click More.

But I think we are kicking a dead horse here. Maybe I'll change to icons from arrows to a + and - or something like that. But this is such a minor issue that it's really a waste of time for me to be posting this instead of working on real serious bugs.