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Merilix
Beginner


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:46 pm   

[3.0] Multiple Sessions sharing one Map - Question
 
In zMud i have some sessions for different chars on the same mud sharing one inherited session.
All of these are also sharing the same Map database with about 64k rooms and 400k links.
Until now it wasnt a problem to play more than one character at the same time but wil this still be true after change to sqlite Question
As far i know are multiple sessions to the same ADO database supported but supposedly thats not the case for sqlite Confused
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Zugg
MASTER


Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:03 pm   
 
It won't make any difference at all. SQLite is a multi-user SQL database just like ADO. So I'm not sure where you got the mis-information.

However, in general CMUD does not support multiple characters sharing the same map. The map is attached to a single session. This is something I plan to improve in the future so that each character can have it's own "marker" to be shown on the same map. But it will be a while until I add that functionality.

But the conversion to SQLite should work the same way as the current mapper. So if it's working for you now, then it should still work for you after the conversion. You can let me know if it somehow fails, but I'll probably just say that sharing the same map isn't currently supported.
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Merilix
Beginner


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:40 pm   
 
Many thanks for your answer.
I could have mis-interpreted some sentences from here http://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html.
specially these two sentences alarmed me:
Quote:
If file locking does not work like it should, it might be possible for two or more client programs to modify the same part of the same database at the same time, resulting in database corruption.

and
Quote:
Similarly, if any one process is writing to the database, all other processes are prevented from reading any other part of the database.

But as i sayd, probably mis-interpreted ;)

Using the same map database in more than one session at once (of cource in a separate map window for each) is a helpful feature so i would realy unhappy if that would cause serious issues in the new version :)
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Zugg
MASTER


Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:09 am   
 
Well, that might be technically true when you are talking about multiple threads. But since CMUD always writes to the map database from the main thread, this shouldn't cause problems. I think the key is the statement:
Quote:
If file locking does not work like it should

They *are* using file locking, and that should be sufficient. For example, I can open the map database in the SQLite Administrator program and then run CMUD and load the same map file, and it works fine. Technically if the Mapper was writing to the database at the same time I tried to update a field in SQLite Admin, then there might be a problem. But typically you don't get database corruption, it just saves the value from whatever program got the lock on the database first.

I think they are mainly saying that they use file locking, rather than record locking, which is what more powerful server-based databases use. But it doesn't matter for CMUD.

But like I said, since I don't officially support multiple sessions with multiple map windows, I can't guarantee that the new version will work for that. You are using a feature that just happens to work for you but isn't officially supported.
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TonDiening
GURU


Joined: 26 Jul 2001
Posts: 1958
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:04 am   
 
I have seen in the past, with BattleTech multiplayers, a trick with push/pop'ing colors on the map for all your child windows.

Then some fancy pants set location, figure out the path, and move them about.

I'll see if I can dig that script up or find it on the net. If not perhaps we can rethink it out.
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Merilix
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Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:09 pm   
 
Zugg wrote:
But like I said, since I don't officially support multiple sessions with multiple map windows, I can't guarantee that the new version will work for that. You are using a feature that just happens to work for you but isn't officially supported.


As i just now noticed open a 2nd session (regardless if on the same mud or not) doesnt open the map associated to the 2nd session.
It looks like only one map can be open at the same time.

Im sorry but that is showstopper for me and im very sure that im not alone.
Loosing this in zMud 7.21 realy very well working functionality isnt acceptable for me.
It may be that you or other CMUD users are only playing on muds where only one character is allowed at once but thats not the case where im playing.
Just to give you one common usecase: When my druid is collecting herbs somewhere far far away in the wild and an other player dies then often i quick login my cleric and try to reanimate the dead. That must be done asap because when he is skeletonized it is too late and he will loose many hard to regain skills. . Self evident do i need the map for this 2nd character also. Also self evident i dont like to logoff or disconnect my druid first. Other but similar usecase is if someone screems for help and i have time then often ill quick logon one of my chars nearby without disrupting what im doing in the first session.
I cannot think that nobody else needs that feature.

Again, multiple sessions (incl. associated map even if its the same^^) are very well working in zMud so ill ask you and me why i have spent money for a product with less basic functionality?
Also again, im very happy with zMud. Apart from some remaining strange issuses you wrote a fantastic program. I love it and spent much much time to bring my map in and alive.
With CMUD i had the hope that some things becomes better but i only got issues, problems and frustration :(

Too bad about wasted time until now but looking forward that things get better.
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Tech
GURU


Joined: 18 Oct 2000
Posts: 2733
Location: Atlanta, USA

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:13 pm   
 
Another option, that may or may not be less palatable to you, is to have to multiple instances of CMUD running. For example, I sometimes have 3 instances running. One for my character while I'm mudding and playing, one for testing code snippets to respond to things in the forums and another for where I develop my new scripts and packages (I like to do this offline, so errant code doesn't hose my character).

Both instances of CMUD should be able to access the map independent of each other. The only hiccup I can see is getting updates when instance is mapping new areas and the other is not.
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Merilix
Beginner


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:10 am   
 
Hmm, i do not had this idea yet but on the first quick view it seems to be working.
That the map isnt updated immediately isnt a problem for me, its the same as in zMud. I would see two other hiccups: 1) i cannot easily switch betwieen tabs but have to look for the right session in the task bar^^ and 2.) it needs much more memory than a single app instance. that could be a problem when i play my druid where i have a big excel sheet open in paralel.
I also have to check if the com object used there connects to the right cmud instance.
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Dumas
Enchanter


Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 511
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:39 pm   
 
Merilix wrote:
Im sorry but that is showstopper for me and im very sure that im not alone.
Loosing this in zMud 7.21 realy very well working functionality isnt acceptable for me.
It may be that you or other CMUD users are only playing on muds where only one character is allowed at once but thats not the case where im playing.


1. You probably aren't alone, but I doubt the numbers were really that high as it was never a stated feature so some probably never even tried.

2. Just because it worked in zMUD doesn't mean it was supposed to. No sense getting mad when it doesn't work now.

3. I'm willing to place my money that the vast majority play a MUD that doesn't allow it, and that many, many MUDs don't.
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Merilix
Beginner


Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:55 pm   
 
1. statet or not, the feature is offered just via "File/Open Session" menu. From this point of view it is official.

2. CMUD shoud be an upgrade not an downgrade in one of its main features. lol. By the way, i wouldnt complain if Zugg would continue supporting
zmud with bugfixes but as i understood he will concentrate on CMUD and the new mapper.

3. I do not have any statistic about how many MUDs allow this or not. That doesnt interest me. Im playing just one mud excessive and 3 others
from time to time and all of them allow this in principle under the condition that multiple chars have their own life and are played widely independent
from each other.
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Zugg
MASTER


Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:46 pm   
 
CMUD is *NOT AN UPGRADE* to zMUD. I don't know how many times I need to say that for people to hear it. CMUD is a completely new MUD client that has taken 2 years to write from scratch. It just happens to be mostly compatible with zMUD. There are some features that zMUD had that CMUD doesn't (yet), and there are many features that CMUD has that zMUD doesn't (and never will).

The mapper from zMUD was directly ported from zMUD into CMUD and does not work perfectly with the new CMUD interface. That is why I'm in the middle of rewriting the mapper for CMUD right now. It eventually will handle what you want, but right now it doesn't. As someone already mentioned, if you want multiple sessions running with their own map, you need to run multiple copies of CMUD (which is something zMUD couldn't do).

As for switching between tabs, you use Alt-Tab just like with any other Windows app. And memory is cheap and shouldn't be a concern these days. Most of the memory being used is for your actual map file, so the overhead of running two copies of CMUD is only 20 MB or so.
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