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Yamabushi
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 101
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:19 pm   

Suggestions for Cmud
 
Cmud is an interesting program, no one will question that. However, the beta has me wondering, what is in store if I decide to spend $30 bucks on this software.

Right now, it is highly unstable, very picky even. If a person is completely new to M' Type games, they will easily get washed over by the steep learning curve and settings that an engineer would have a hard time to configure.

Compared to Zmud, Cmud does seem very similar. But, some of the interesting features I've seen are triggers that quit firing when you restart the client, and variables that quit refreshing.

Loading your old settings is a feat that I haven't been able to accomplish, mainly because I get a hard crash of the client before I can see if anything has been saved.

As for ease of use, this program has a high learning curve. Steeper than Zmud I would say.

However, I'm not just going to complain here. I have suggestions on it, take them for what they are.


For importing your old settings, please consider adding an import from .mud file option. And when it goes through to import, it will flag and not load any settings that violate Cmud logic. This hopefully will keep the program from crashing while trying to compile illegal data.

Take the time and squash the bugs in the Zmud style commands. I find it hard pressed to buy software that is supposed to accomplish the same task that an older, more reliable software will do. Especially when the new software doesn't do anything that the old software performed stability.

Finally, update the wizards and soon to come help files to be newbie oriented. Perhaps give a sample window that comes up with whatever command your trying to use, or as Microsoft does with Excel, have a formula builder to help you create triggers and your scripting.

Helping to lower the learning curve will help Cmud two fold. First, it will allow new users who probably have little knowledge of coding, to accomplish things they find valuable. Secondly, it will help your current customers make the switch from Zmud to Cmud, and perhaps, make them even look forward to it.


Thanks Zugg for the years of support and work on Zmud.

And please don't take this as flames or trying to slam Cmud, these are just my opinions and suggestions for the software.
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Chiara
Site Admin


Joined: 29 Sep 2000
Posts: 378
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:40 pm   
 
CMUD is BETA software. It is advertised as such. Every one knows it, and it is at 1.0.1 release.

OF COURSE it is buggy.

Anyone not interested in bug testing should not be using CMUD yet. Wait until it is a public release.

It is offered for sale now for all those people who know that Zugg writes quality software and that the public version will be stable once it is released, for people who want to get a head start on package libraries, bug testers, and for all those people who want to take advantage of the beta period purchase discount.

By the time the public version is ready, there will be tutorials, more help, and it will be nice and stable.
And then CMUD will leave zMUD in the dust.
We aren't there yet.
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Larkin
Wizard


Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 1113
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:47 pm   
 
Even despite the hurdles in getting some things to function in CMUD, I must say that I'm looking forward to the real release. I have faith that most, if not all, of the bugs will be worked out by then. I'm looking forward to the new features yet to be added. I'm actually enjoying going through the software and putting it through its paces with my many scripts. I only hope that the reports I submit are more helpful than they are simply time consuming.

Thank you, Zugg (and Chiara), for your ongoing efforts to improve the quality of text-based gaming for us all.
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Yamabushi
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 101
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:49 pm   
 
Well, let’s say for example I design cars.

I build a prototype car, take it out on the road and show it to everyone. But it keeps dying, will not run over 5 miles per hour.

Would me saying "This is a beta car!" cover me? No way, people wouldn’t buy my car because the prototype that went public had too many issues.

I'm not saying what kind of software that Zugg writes. I'm pretty happy with zmud to tell you the truth. I would just rather not see you shoot yourself in the foot by having something that isn't of the quality of his other programs to be blasted out upon the net.


By saying stuff like OF COURSE it is buggy, and the other comments in your post Chiara gives the impression that mediocrity is accepted, when it shouldn't be.
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Larkin
Wizard


Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 1113
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:03 pm   
 
Zugg is only one man, and doesn't have the Q&A team that a professional auto company has. He tested the software in the way he knew how. In the end, you have to put it out to other people to get a wider test set. We have various machines configurations and software installations that could cause unforeseen problems. We have scripts and databases that Zugg hasn't built himself, many of them with proprietary workarounds for some of the little quirks that have crept into zMUD over its many years.

I've written a few programs for casual use as well as many for business purposes and tested them until I thought they were solid and fully functional. Inevitably, as soon as I let anyone else touch it, it breaks. I say, "Hey! That's not how you're supposed to use it!" I'm just thankful that I don't have the thousands of users coming to me with problems that Zugg has. I don't know how he does it, honestly.
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Baram
Novice


Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 33
Location: Seoul, Korea

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:38 pm   
 
This is why we have beta testings. Persistent Realms is currently developing Ilyrias, and when we first open to the public it will be with the disclaimer that we are in BETA testing and expect to find bugs. There's no way to find all the bugs, without people using the software and looking.

This is why you had to AGREE to utilize the BETA cMud.

If that car company held the show, and said this is a beta/prototype, then yes they are covered. Those that want to see the new things that will be coming out later will check it out. Those that don't, will wait for public.

Obviously you're not one of us that want to help work out the bugs, and see what the future of mudding will be like.
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Rainchild
Wizard


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 1551
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:21 pm   
 
Personally I think Zugg should have had a 1-2 month 'closed' (zmud guru-only) beta period, but his reasoning for going straight to 'public' beta was sound: "I'm just going to do a full beta release. I have found in the past that closed beta don't give me enough feedback."

I'm actually really happy to get my mitts on CMUD this early, I knew that there would be issues and accepted that. And really once Zugg's had his break to regenerate I expect these bugs to be eradicated quickly - he is a powerhouse of coding when he's in the zone, and I'm actually really amazed that he got CMUD together this quickly. I'd be surprised if a team of 2 or 3 developers could have put it together this quickly.

I bet you'll find 1.03 stable enough for most of your day to day use, but there's a few of us hardcore user's who wanted to be there from the start to help in the tuning process and are glad that we did get our mitts on these releases this early.
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Yamabushi
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 101
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:14 pm   
 
Stable for day to day use, isn't that what a Beta is supposed to be? I've had issues just doing standard aliases, triggers and variables with this software. *shrug*

Really Rainchild is right, Zugg will get too much feedback and data from this considering he's up to almost 500 downloads, and that the first patch had to come in under 24hrs of the initial release.
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Taz
GURU


Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1395
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:35 pm   
 
Yamabushi wrote:
Stable for day to day use, isn't that what a Beta is supposed to be?
No, not in the least. What on earth gave you that idea?
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Yamabushi
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Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 101
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:48 pm   
 
Perhaps most of the beta's I've been involved in was running software that would perform it's function without crashing every session. Granted there will be quarks, bugs and issues that come up. But saving your settings, having triggers that keep working, being able to change your settings and get them to stay without the need of scratching your nose with your elbow.

Issues such as not saving your settings when you close with the check box should have been cleared up before this went public.
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Strakc
Apprentice


Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 106
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:12 am   
 
Yea but if you think about it, its kinda a sneak peek at whats going to come forth after his vacation. Wouldn't you like to know that you made a slight difference in helping something that we've only talked about? Ok yea, I actually got banned from my mud cause of a few things going off with Cmud but hey its fun, and I explained what happened when I was toying around. Just gotta lighten up dude. What I do find weird that is since its really so buggy and such that we have to waste some of our license period not even able to completly use the program, but its better to see the progress then just to talk about it right?
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Rainchild
Wizard


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 1551
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:28 am   
 
Nobody forced you to download it, and typically Zugg will reset the trial period when a new major update comes out (so I imagine that we will get a trial reset when it goes public), but for me the point is moot, I've already paid for my copy. I trust Zugg, I know that CMUD public will be an absolutely killer app, but to get it to there we need to give it a hand along the way.

I can understand your frustration with the triggers, but everything else is working well enough to use, albeit with a few quirks here and there. I haven't had issues with settings not saving, so I dunno what you're doing differently to me, but I'm sure it will be ironed out as we go along.

It sounds like you're not ready to help out in the beta process, so why don't you back off for a few weeks until things are a little more stable? Maybe it would have been better for Zugg to label it as an "alpha" for the first month or two, but he doesn't really do the alpha beta gamma thing.
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avidal
Beginner


Joined: 04 Jun 2002
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:30 am   
 
Yamabushi, I think you're expecting too much out of highly beta software. This version of the software is what's typically distributed in a closed beta, but Zugg decided for a public beta to get more feedback, as people pointed out earlier.

He doesn't have a large in-house QA team, we are his QA team. He tested everything locally with his own settings, and would not have released it if it performed for him like it does for us. That's why it was distributed to us, so we can do things to it, and import things that he either did not think of, or did not expect.

A lot of people seem to have problems, but there are a lot of people who have none. I have virtually 0 problems using cMUD, with the exception of some of the global bugs such as the multi-line command error. All of my settings work correctly with a few tweaks to get them operating with the new scripting engine.

Zugg is taking his vacation to give him time to relax, and to give us time to break his software in as many ways as possible. When he comes back in 2 weeks, he'll see all of our reports and all of our posts here, and he'll start knocking out the problems. I have complete and utter faith that before this hits 'stable', it truly will be stable. Zugg and Chiara depend on Zuggsoft for income, he would not willingly release a highly unstable product unless he didn't encounter the problems, and so saw it as more stable.
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Vijilante
SubAdmin


Joined: 18 Nov 2001
Posts: 5182

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:15 am   
 
I am going to lock this topic as pretty much everything on the subject has been said. Zugg has always aimed at producing a software that exceeds his user requirements by meeting the requests of each user in a fashion that allows all user to benefit. Please show some patience in this, CMud is still in its earliest beta stages.
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