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Zugg Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:24 pm
PSUB problem with Aardwolf {rname} tag

Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 246

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:44 am   
From RFC854 - Telnet Protocol Specification:

RFC854 wrote:
The sequence "CR LF", as defined, will cause the NVT to be positioned at the left margin of the next print line (as would, for example, the sequence "LF CR"). However, many systems and terminals do not treat CR and LF independently, and will have to go to some effort to simulate their effect. (For example, some terminals do not have a CR independent of the LF, but on such terminals it may be possible to simulate a CR by backspacing.) Therefore, the sequence "CR LF" must be treated as a single "new line" character and used whenever their combined action is intended; the sequence "CR NUL" must be used where a carriage return alone is actually desired; and the CR character must be avoided in other contexts. This rule gives assurance to systems which must decide whether to perform a "new line" function or a multiple-backspace that the TELNET stream contains a character following a CR that will allow a rational decision.... for the sake of consistency, the protocol requires that a NUL be inserted following a CR not followed by a LF in the data stream.

My reading would therefore agree with Zugg, and LF-CR is a violation of the protocol spec.
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Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 14
Location: Orlando

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:23 am   
Whether or not the comment on the CR/LF order itself was correct is not the point. I wasn't debating it. My personal interpretation is "irrelevant" given how long it has been that way and apparently somebody just noticed. I'll change it on our test port anyway and see what happens because I like things to be right.

The point should be obvious. It's also off topic so I'll thank the original poster for the "advice" on our telnet implementation and move on...
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:14 am   
It's ok, I've seen lots of other MUDs that do it to. It's a curse in a way. zMUD is like the original Internet Explorer. zMUD allows all sorts of non-standard behavior. My original intent was to make zMUD work on any MUD, regardless of how well they followed any particular standard. Just like the early days of IE where they wanted it to be able to display any web page, even if it didn't have correct HTML (missing tags, etc).

Over the years this has led to the same problem on MUDs that happened with web pages on the Internet. People would test with zMUD and say "hey, cool, it works" even if they didn't follow the standard. Sometimes I think that I should have just stuck to the standards. But of course, then not as many people would have used zMUD in the first place since it wouldn't work on MUD XYZ.

So it's a catch-22. Bad things happen no matter what we do. But I appreciate your willingness to look into this and correct it. I doubt many people play MUDs with "normal" Telnet clients, but it's very likely that a normal telnet client that requires a strict protocol would not work on Aardwolf as it stands now.
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Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:31 am   
Btw, someone needs to find out why Aardwolf is...
You don't have Lasher's email address?

It almost makes me want to quit playing Aardwolf entirely.
Really? REALLY? Your righteous indignation is so great that you'd leave over something that nobody even noticed until now? Come on. Really?

I doubt many people play MUDs with "normal" Telnet clients, but it's very likely that a normal telnet client that requires a strict protocol would not work on Aardwolf as it stands now.
Plenty of people use normal telnet clients to play. None of them have problems either.

Seriously, you're talking about something that was designed for teletype machines to have enough time to backspace, BACKSPACE, to the beginning of a line. I doubt you could find a single program today that would choke on LF/CR. I'm not saying it shouldn't be fixed, but come on. Get some perspective.
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