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Magician Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 430

In a nutshell, here's my deal.

During a better half of last year I was on and off busy with finding a fresh MUD for me to play.
I tried to get into Achaea and got it somewhat past the Level 40. Recently I started to play Lusternia
and finished newbie -and novicehood. However, here's the problem I'm facing.

While I'd love to get into either of the formentioned, because I'd really like to do the intense, complex
combat stuff in the future, to be honest, the whole RP aspect throws me off. I recall someone here,
under some sort 'where to play?' thread, pointing out how come it's possible that something that
script-oriented can be so heavily RP. Well, recently I've asked myself the same question and honestly,
not having a reasonable response makes me wonder if I've chosen the right place in the first place.

Over 5 years I played a MUD with absolutely no RP whatsoever. It's hard to do a complete switch now,
suddenly, even if it'd be rewarding in the end. I might've been into the whole RP aspect several years
ago, but now it just feels annoying.

So, what I'm basically asking I suppose, is if there's any MUD at all, which would've decent and at the
same time complex combat system (I'd say, IREsque combat, but I won't because of the obvious irony),
while being non-enforcing in the RP department?

Sorry for the OT rant, but it has bothered me awhile now and I wanted to get it out there, while perhaps
gaining a few suggestions.

Thanks.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

While I haven't played it myself you might want to take a look at http://www.godwars2.org/. I think RP is more rewarding than PVP though Very Happy

. My experience of PVP is that people get upset and soon the game environment can become pretty rude and nasty Sad

.

Magician Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 430

Thanks for the reply! However, I apologize, because I should've gone in more detail of what I'd like to play, ideally.
I don't really mind the MUD as a whole having some sort of story line, my old MUD actually didn't and ended up being
a mixture of several fantasy-themed areas which weren't related. To be fair, I don't mind the MUD having the RP
*aspect* either, I just need it to be non-enforced, so that I could choose a different path without suffering shortcomings
of some sort because of my initial choice.

I took a quick glance at the GodWars site you gave, Rorso, and while it sounds interesting, I'm used to fixed zones within
the game that I'd be able to map. Hence, "Roomless coordinate-based world" won't likely be my cup of tea, either.

I'm used to a level-based system (gain a level, obtain trains and practices for stats and spells/skills, respectively - usual
ROM way(?), I suppose). However, leveless skill-based system sounds good, too.

MUD doesn't have to be fully PVP. Perhaps it'd even be better if it ain't. More like a restricted PK type. Certain areas where
PVP is agreed upon, otherwise denied (arenas, combat zones, etc).

And last, but not least, PK should be strategical, meaning number of levels you've gained doesn't ultimately mean you're going
to win.

Hell, maybe it's just wishful thinking and there's no such MUD out there which would meet my criteria Neutral

Wizard Joined: 22 Mar 2007 Posts: 2320

Have you check the Mud Connector? mudconnect.com. It is a mud listing service and includes an advanced search which allows you to select a wide variety of criteria, including rp enforcement level, pk level, and skill gain method.

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:20 pm

RP = roleplaying correct? How do you enforce that?

Magician Joined: 17 Apr 2005 Posts: 496

How not RP? Are you OK with not being able to be obviously OOC in public, as long as you don't have to do anything drawn out? If so, you could try just being an arena bunny in an IRE game. Achaea I hear is pretty lax about actual RP as long as you stick to not killing except outside the arenas or, well, frankly stick to the arenas. Imperian can be kind of brutal at the moment but you can get by with minimal RP in some organizations (Stavenn, basically), outside of the arena you do need a PK "reason", but they can be really simple, and frankly as a Stavennite you wouldn't have much trouble finding one. In both cases if you enjoy the ooc chit-chat, you can join any of a number of ooc chat clans on the side. I should add a disclaimer that none of the above applies while under approximately level 50, because at that point you're still new enough that people don't know if you're a serious PKer who enjoys a -good- fight, or if you're some kind of griefer/nuisance. It also might help if you post on the forums of the game that you decide to play ahead of time, asking about which organizations are most friendly to someone who's looking for interesting PK with minimal RP, with the provision that you understand that you're required to be not-ooc.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:48 pm

Magician Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 430

Rahab, many thanks for the suggestion! I frequented those voting sites (TopMudSites etc) for additional searches, but frankly they
didn't have any advanced search option I could find. Totally forgot about the Mudconnect site, and the advance search they provide
is very nice. However, I'm sure I'm missing something but I can't seem to get it to work. I chose among all the extended aspect
within the search but didn't fill in the 'keyphrase', and it doesn't seem to work otherwise. Tried choosing 'any keyword', but same deal.

Taz, gamma_ray: It's really hard to say. After over 5 years of being used to 'ooc' chat in whatever channel, regardless if public or private,
it's tough. However, while I was playing Achaea, to be honest, I did get used to the whole public channel ooc rule and followed it. So I suppose you could say that I'm OK with it. What I wasn't OK in Achaea, was the RP I was thrown into the moment I started the game
and joined a guild(?). While at the time it was the *very first* time I seriously tried Achaea, I felt enough overwhelmed with new structure
that having to read some scrolls and having 'talks' with 'elders', seemed bit too much. So I stepped out of the guild and pretty much
stayed out ever since. However, at the time I was being told, that for being actually able to decently do PVP, I need to join the guild and *have to* do RP sooner or later. While I like the general idea of complex back stories for world/clans/guilds etc I'm not much of an actor
to 'play a role'. It's just not me. Hence, I don't know. I wouldn't say Achaea was lax. I pretty much had to hold my breath even in private
conversations.

In this regard, I would actually say, that at first Lusternia felt more "lax." I was free to build my character up in peace, even though I
joined city, collegium, guild and clan pretty much from scratch. And even though it seems like Clan doesn't require anything RP related,
bad was my suprise when once graduated from 'novice-hood', I *had to* dive into deep RP required by my Guild. Reading scrolls, preforming rituals, etc. Sorry, it's just not for me. To be honest, I have enough reading to do RL as it is, and MUD is a place I'd like to relax. It may sound shallow, but that's just the way it is.

I haven't tried Imperian, but I think I'd rather hold off with it now that I've tried both Achaea and Lusternia.

Bottom line, I don't know. You may be correct about Clans being lax with actual RP, gamma_ray, but there still seems to be other stuff
to consider as well about which I wrote above.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Wizard Joined: 22 Mar 2007 Posts: 2320

I don't have a problem with the advanced search on the Mud Connector. However, it is easy to specify so many things that you end up with zero results. Only click on the specifications you are concerned about. If you still get no results, try removing some of the criteria.

edit: Oh, and some of the criteria are contradictory. Be sure, for instance, not to click both Non-Roleplaying Mud and Roleplaying Accepted, as you can only choose one of that category at a time. And if you want, say, Not Pay For Play, click only on the Not. If you click both Not and Pay For Play, you get nothing.

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:24 pm

Magician Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 430

Yay, Taz! At least now I know I'm not alone! Cool

Indeed Rahab. I ended up reading the Help and it pretty much suggested the same thing. However, even though the search itself is excellent in theory, I seem to end up with either no possible matches or one, two which are ultimately small MUDs with handful of people online. And I'm only checking one, two options at most at the moment! Oh well, I'll keep trying. Maybe eventually my luck turns.

Many thanks to everyone who has had helpful suggestions thus far!

Apprentice Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 167 Location: aztx

I always thought the game and/or code should RP itself. I mean why not just go to an RP forum(those are fun to read)? Maybe for structure?

Mud administrator's who do not like pking: tend to make some neat world stuff and/or RP material.
Those who do: eventually make some cool pk involved thing.

And it's almost impossible to mix these two traits into a mud. If they did I don't believe role-playing would have to be enforced.
They are like two ingredients that should be mixed at the right temperature to create some wonderful potion.
So usually RP muds have rules because it's an RP made AND because there is PKing.
It's usually bad sense to have a mud where players kill mobiles but cannot affect other players. Pking lets them do this quite well.
I mean you are *trying* to make a world right?

Okay that is my beef with RP muds. I always believed the game itself could cause role-playing.

Maybe a script can be made with rp?

Wizard Joined: 26 Mar 2008 Posts: 1547

I tend to think of myself as an open minded person who can understand where other people are coming from, even if I don't agree. However, for some reason, I simply can't wrap my head around why you would play a MUD and not want to roleplay even if in some limited form? What about MUD PK sticks out to you so much that it's better than PK in any other sort of game? I PK while I MUD but the only reason I MUD is because of the boundless RP potential it offers, otherwise I think I'd stick to some graphical game where PK offers far more elements and depth with movement coordination as well as strategic skill/spell use.

Wizard Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 1201

Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:34 am

I think you're underestimating the appeal of what you call "chat room" MUDs - far from being a tiny minority of players, I'd guess that most MUDs (and most players) are just that, and cater to those people. What I like about IRE MUDs is their balance of RP and interesting combat - never falling into the annoying submit-a-1000-word-essay-on-your-character-concept-before-creation stuff of RPI MUDs, and also keeping the combat more interesting than typing KILL FRUITFLY and going to get a cup of tea and a biscuit.

Someone above asked how you enforce RP, and the answer is that generally, unless you're an RPI MUD and you're going out of your way to be annoying about it (and also have four players and thus can watch them closely), you don't. The community will decide, collectively and invisibly, what level of RP it's comfortable with and will generally enforce it itself - those that don't meet the standard will be told that they're not doing so, and if they persist, people will stop interacting with them.

In IRE MUDs in particular, I never felt any real pressure to be an RPing paragon - I never wrote a character background or history and essentially played it by ear, and it worked fine. I never felt bad asking how many lessons it'd take me to get from one skill level to another, or where the best place to level grind was. I saw the RP rules more as a prohibition against mucking up other people's RP, if they were more serious about it than I was, than they were about trying to shoehorn me into doing it myself.

I agree pretty strongly with chamenas, though. Personally, if I weren't go to make any effort whatsoever to RP, by participating in group activities or whatever, then I'd play something with graphics - it'd be pretty much exactly the same experience, but better-looking and the combat would be less tedious (see also: KILL FRUITFLY).

Er... I started off this post with some kind of point in mind, but I've meandered around a bit and not really reached it, and now I've forgotten what it was. If I remember, I'll post again :P

Magician Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 430

Well, sorry but I think that this is what I'd call a confrontation of principle. I find it naive to even entertain the notion that MUDs with
no RP have no social interaction and hence, no "real" collectivism to speak of.

My old MUD, which I used to frequent over the course of *5* years had, for instance, a decent Clan system. The member amounts
varied, but regardless of the numbers, the community was always very close-knit. Own Castle was defended as a strategical
"one team," and so were the sieges into the Castles of others. I really can't compare it with enforcing one to join some sort of guild,
doing some ritual dances and then going, "Arr... I'm the great Lord Blah of the Vampire bloodline of the Sixth Order" over "aetherways."
All I was writing about above happened in *real time*. It wasn't some sort of fiction, where you have to watch what you say
unless you want trouble.

When there weren't any sieges or clan wars, people just did what everyone saw fit and occasionally chatted over different scope of
channels. You'd say that chatting over real life events in a MUD beats the purpose, but I'd disagree. If I ought to relax, I'd any day
prefer a close-knit community of friends whom I could talk to without the fear of subconsious censorship, over some place where
I actually can't be in peace because I have to first think about what I want to say before I could actually say it. In my honest opinion,
this is not how a *game* should work. At all.

Anyway, I suppose I have to stress once again, that I'm actually not some sort of "bloodthirsty" PK type. During the course of the years
while I played my old MUD I got pretty used to the restricted PK type that it was. Unlikely I'd like to have the alternative now. That being
said, you can't really say that I'd just want to play the game to kill people (and hence be rude). But to be completely honest, there's
only so much I can explain without starting to repeat myself...

Apprentice Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Posts: 121

Aardwolf seems to fit every thing you are looking at, perhaps except the '1000 levels = autowin type thing'
People do RP in the game, but its not rewarded. Every channel is 'ooc'.
There are people that really enjoy pvp and pk at early levels and are good at them.. it all comes down to what you enjoy i suppose
check it out
aardmud.org 4010

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Apprentice Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Posts: 121

I dont know what auto combat is.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Apprentice Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Posts: 121

oh.
yes, it does this.
:)
I thought all muds did this:P
You also cast spells and maladictions on the mobs.

Wizard Joined: 26 Mar 2008 Posts: 1547

Auto combat isn't that bad if it's combined with having to use your skills and spells in an efficient manner, which is what my MUD does. But my MUD is also RP enforced.

Wizard Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 1201