Zugg Software :: View topic

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:57 pm

During the new mapper rewrite in CMUD I want to add more functionality to the CMUD mapper. Some of these features are already part of zMapper. For example, you can already add a background image to your zone map using zMapper. But I want the new CMUD mapper to allow you to easily do that too.

So, the tricky question is trying to figure out what zMapper features to make available to normal CMUD users, without de-valuing zMapper for those people who have bought it already.

zMapper/CMapper will still exist as a standalone map editor. Maybe that's enough? zMapper also provides an enhanced scripting API for the maps, so maybe that's also a good selling point.

But here are the features from zMapper that I am considering adding to the main CMUD mapper:

Background images
Custom room types with their own shape/icon/color/etc (like Water, Road, Mountain, etc). This is needed to tie into some new speedwalking improvements. For example, only speedwalking through water rooms if you can swim or have a boat.
The Shape Editor for creating custom room shapes
The Icon Editor for creating custom room icons/textures
Ability to add custom "objects" to a map, like lines, rectangles, text labels, icons, etc which are not associated with any particular room.

These are all very important features for the new mapper and I don't want to make this exclusive to zMapper/CMUDPro users. I want all CMUD users to get these mapper improvements.

Does this de-value zMapper/CMapper? Are there other things from zMapper that need to be available to normal CMUD users, such as an improved scripting API? The problem with the existing zMapper API is that nobody uses it because it requires zMapper.

Wizard Joined: 03 Mar 2001 Posts: 1127 Location: London

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:46 pm

I can't make CMapper "a part of" CMUDPro. The whole point of CMapper is to be a *standalone* map editor. For example, I currently use zMapper to create maps for zExplorer. I don't want to run CMUDPro just to edit my map files. Using zMapper/zExplorer allows you to create maps for all sorts of purposes other than MUD playing, and I want to maintain that. So I'm not getting rid of CMapper.

But CMUDPro will still always load the CMapper "plugin" just like it currently loads zMapper to allow for the additional scripting API. So yes, you'll be able to use just CMUDPro instead of CMapper if you just care about the MUD-related mapping stuff. But that doesn't mean that CMapper still doesn't exist as a separate product.

But I agree that putting CMapper features into CMUD will be a better way to get it into regular use. Getting CMapper less buggy and into Public release status will also help (zMapper was still always in Beta version).

Let's not get into license discussions (upgrades, discounts, etc) in this particular thread. I'm more interested in talking about the mapper feature set that should be in CMUD. License issues are more complex as there are technical issues involved in managing the various licenses.

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

One way exits are a very common occurrence in muds. The ability to set them by script needs to implemented, and currently it can only be done through the zMapper API. I think it is common enough item that it should be doable without zMapper.

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:02 am

Yeah, the existing %roomxxx function calls are not the right way to do it. I need to maintain backwards compatibility with those functions, but all of the new stuff is going to be available via a more object-oriented API, more like the current zMapper API. A lot of that will be available via the regular version of CMUD. Just because adding even more %roomxxx functions is just a pain and not extensible. It makes much more sense to grab a reference to a Room, then query an Exit to get a Link object and then manipulate the properties of the Link directly.

So, similar to the current zMapper API, but with the newer features. But that's another good reason to get feedback in this thread. Because the way it is looking to me, the regular CMUD would have a large fraction of the zMapper features, leaving CMUDPro with just the SSH stuff, and zMapper/CMapper with just the "standalone map editor" portion.

I really do *not* want to spend 6 months of hard development just for more features in CMapper that nobody uses. zMapper was a bad failure from a business point of view and it was very depressing to see so much work go unused and unfinished. I'd really rather put all of the new stuff into regular CMUD where *everyone* can start using it. Especially when so much of the ground work has already been done with zMapper.

Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:39 am

As I tried to think about I had to go back to the feature set as listed Zuggsoft website even though I have the product. Most of the features you're considering rolling into CMUD were the primary reasons I got zMapper (well those and the API)

Based on it's current feature set, it would devalue (and perhaps obsolete) cMapper and by extension devalue the cMapper support in CMUD Pro.

So there are really two questions here.

1. What additional useful could you add to cMapper to provide value. I'm having a hard time thinking of them right now (it's late) and many may depend on what the new architecture of the mapper will provide. Here are some off the cuff ideas.

I guess I could think of a few once I got going.

2. The second question in the debate is what really distiguished cMUDPro from cMUD. Currently the distinguishers are supposed to be built-in SSH and cMapper support. Depending on how much c/zMapper rolls into the base product could diminish that value proposition. Some quick ideas that may enhance that

Hope those are enough thought starters to get you going.

Adept Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 246

I guess the question to answer is: what features will be CMapper only, and can you reasonably expect enough people to pay for it?

Personally, I would say, make the built-in mapper able to play games with, but the rest, including eye candy, is optional. So in your list in the first post, I think you are seriously devaluing CMapper if you add things like backgrounds, shapes, etc.

Here are some other ideas for CMapper, to promote its value, perhaps:

export to image (and therefore not available in CMUD)
export to XML
export to MUD DB tools (imagine builders being able to do all their work in the mapper)
a mapping mySQL/CGI package to allow people to navigate maps on the web (find paths, look at descs, etc.)
export to ASCII map
easy integration into a DB module (e.g., keep track of vendor's wares and prices, mobs, room contents)

Some of that is probably already there or buildable (particularly the DB tracking one)--but the point is to try to make it easy(-ier) for the non-scripter.