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Zugg Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:59 am
Microsoft Vista is a piece of crap!
Rorso
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Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:13 pm   
 
Fang Xianfu wrote:

you suggested Linux, and Zugg can't use it because the things he uses Windows for don't work under Linux.

That was actually a joke to point out how locked in we are to Windows. As user you have very little choice currently. Either you use Microsoft's solution or you don't use your computer. People all over the world depend on Microsoft doing the correct choices as it release new versions of its OS.

Maybe Linux isn't usable for everyone but atleast it is an "alternative".
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ralgith
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:31 pm   
 
Ok, yes, there ARE games for Linux. But not ALL of them. Not even a high percentage of them.

Switching development for Zugg would be VERY simple if Delphi was ported to Linux. Sure, he'd have to possibly change a few components and/or libraries he uses, but look at the EXCELLENT dev libraries there are for Linux, many of which have been ported to Windows because they are so good.

Yes, many many barriers exist for some programming languages being translated to Linux. For instance translating from M$ Visual C++ can be VERY much a pain... know why? Because too much software written there uses M$'s proprietary libraries and functions and on and on and on. Too far off the STANDARDS. If everyone was taught to program using the standards we already have in place, and was simply trained on new standards as they are developed (which already has to happen anyways) then everything would be kosher. Ok, sure, Windows has DirectX for gaming support. Which, in its bloated buggy way, is a great dev library for games and other graphics intensive apps. But ya know what? There are many other quality libraries that are cross platform and with a little support from the gaming industry would be able to easily outpace DirectX. For instance, the Allegro library is a great library that was one of those I already mentioned being ported to other platforms.

Anyways, this really is moot right now. It IS going to take a lot of time for this change to occur. Mostly because of the things that have already been pointed out. Rorso made a nice little list of many of the things I consider a problem. Especially the Drag & Drop and they Copy & Paste functionality. But I'm sure for many people the lack of easy installations and the many many different methods of package library are large barriers too. But still, I installed Linux once and MADE my exgirlfriend use it. After 4 days she liked it more than windows in every respect except that she couldn't use Yahoo IM itself, and she didn't like the clone programs. Oh well. And she is FAR from computer literate. She can play games and surf the net. Thats about it. Any kinds of problems or anything and she would come running to me. So, yes, even very simple basic users can use it. And for a server platform, NOTHING rivals Linux properly configured. Unless of course your software requires you to use some proprietary M$ thing that doesn't have a Linux implementation. Oh, you want FrontPage Extensions for your website... sure, let me tweak my apache config and voila... there you go miss Common User Who Can't Write HTML. Sorry, had to say that to point out that a LOT of M$ server stuff can run in your Linux website too. ;)

Still, I would guess around 15 years for Linux to become the major contender I want.

edit:

And yes Fang, I want ALL my games to play too. But oh, guess what? Several of my games made for XP in 2001, 2002, and 2004, WILL NOT work on Vista. Oh, what a shame. So Vista STILL sucks BALLS. And yes, I have SP1 on it. Software thats only 3 years old should NOT be incompatible with the new OS.
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Fang Xianfu
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:09 pm   
 
I would never argue that Linux isn't the king of server platforms. That way lies madness.
Similarly, I'm certainly not going to argue that Vista isn't sucking long and hard all night long. I have to use it at work.

However, for general use, you've pointed out the problem youself - CMUD development could be done on Linux if Delphi were ported, which will never happen. I don't know enough about the libraries in question to comment on DirectX vs Allegro, but simple fact of the matter is that games companies don't develop with those libraries. Until they do, it's not going to change.

I tell you what. If Linux has reached half of Windows' share of the desktop PC market (currently 91.5% vs 0.5%) by 2020, I'll buy you a pint :)
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ralgith
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:45 pm   
 
When did it drop back down? Last I knew Linux was up to 1.8% lol! Of course, this also makes you wonder on the true values of these statistics, because I don't think dual-boot systems are being counted properly. Oh well, regardless, I'm up for that... as long as its a pint of Coca-Cola ;) I don't drink mate. Cheers!
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Zugg
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:55 pm   
 
Well, I have taken my first step towards switching away from the Microsoft Empire. I am typing this post using Safari on my new MacBook Pro. This is my replacement laptop for my dying/dead Toshiba. I intend to use BootCamp to dual-boot Windows XP, and then also use VMware Fusion to run XP emulation directly from the OSX desktop.

It's very true that as a Windows Developer, I'm pretty much stuck. Especially since I use Delphi, which is not likely to ever get ported to the Mac or anything else (their Kylix version of Delphi for Linux never made enough money to survive). But while I'm stuck with Windows for development, this idea of using emulation to run whatever software I want from a non-Microsoft operating system is more of a vision of the future than Linux in my opinion.

I'm already impressed with the MacBook out of the box. Totally trivial to get up and running and posting to the Web easily. Excellent build quality. And excellent support. I got this from the Apple Store at our local Best Buy. I bought it from a knowledgeable Apple person who gave me her card with her direct cell number and email. If I have trouble, I just call her. No waiting on hold for tech support from India for Dell/HP/Toshiba/whoever. No trying to get help from Microsoft.

I'll post more details on my results with VMware Fusion during the week as I get it installed and start using it. But it's a very interesting idea. With the faster computers these days, rather than running a bloated OS like Vista, you can run XP within excellent rock-solid emulation such as VMware. In theory, that lets you run any software you want: Windows/OSX/Linux all from a single desktop.

To me, *that* is the way to start breaking the Microsoft monopoly on the desktop. I'm still not impressed with Linux. Yes, it continues to improve, but even after so many years it isn't ready (in my opinion) for the novice customer. Not compared to Mac or Windows. And from a developer perspective, I still want a full modern IDE development system, such as Delphi or even Visual Studio. And I don't know of something like that for Linux. There are still too many rough edges, and until you get the developers to write better apps for Linux, this will continue to be a problem. If you want developers to write for Linux, you need to make it easy for them.

Not to mention the issues with copy protection. Honestly, I'd develop for the Mac before Linux just because Mac users have a better track record with buying software. Linux has a horrible reputation for that...Linux users want everything for free. That's part of the reason why Kylix failed (well, that and some source compatibility and support issues). But I'm not going to write a MUD client for Linux unless I can protect it, and nothing like Armadillo for Windows exists in the Linux world.

Anyway, I'm hopeful for the future of emulation. You want CMUD? Run it within wine on linux, or within VMware or Parallels on Mac. Seems like that would be the best solution since then I can just concentrate on the Windows version and not waste my time doing a lot of ports.

Anyway, if someone from Microsoft happens to read this rant thread, they will see that Apple has got it's foot in the door. I've been a die-hard PC fanatic for decades. And yet now I've got a Mac. Now that Mac is running on Intel, and now that emulation has improved, and with the mess that Vista is, I think Apple has a pretty bright future ahead.

But stay tuned as I get more experience with the MacBook. Hopefully I won't be posting any "I hate Apple" threads anytime soon, but with my computer "curse", you never know ;)
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Guinn
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Joined: 03 Mar 2001
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:03 pm   
 
Disclaimer: Playing devil's advocate for the sake of it

My problem with seeing OSX as a replacement for Windows is that you don't get OS X on anything but a Mac. If you want to play Crysis then you don't get a Mac because there are half a dozen models and they're all slower than my desktop (unless you spend a fortune on a workstation), and my desktop is hardly state of the art. +130 to upgrade from a Radeon 2600 to a GeForce 8800GT Shocked I bought my 8800GT new for 100. +320 to go from 2GB to 4GB RAM?!? Is the extra 2GB solid gold?
Selling a few models allows them to be able to support you more easily, they don't need to worry about 3rd party companies making dodgy drivers because until the drivers work then the parts don't go into the Mac in the first place.

I also have a problem with anyone that thinks Apple are somehow more moral than Microsoft. They're both money grabbing bastards. The iPod and iPhone are perfect examples of forcing your way upon people because you have the popular product. Don't get me wrong, Microsoft do it too. I'll say again, they're *both* as bad as each other.

Last bit - if people have to continue buying Windows just to run a few applications in VMWare then Microsoft are still happy because you're still buying Windows - moreover you'll be buying it retail not OEM so they'll take a far larger cut. It's when people can happily ditch it completely or Wine/Crossover works well enough that you don't need to bother with VMWare at all. VMWare shouldn't be seen as an alternative to Wine for most people. Btw, I think you can get Crossover for the Mac too Zugg, so maybe worth taking a look at that to see if it'll run CMUD for you.

That said, congrats on the new purchase, I hope you like it. Did you get your pair of sandals yet? Wink
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Rorso
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Joined: 14 Oct 2000
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:29 pm   
 
Zugg wrote:

It's very true that as a Windows Developer, I'm pretty much stuck. Especially since I use Delphi, which is not likely to ever get ported to the Mac or anything else (their Kylix version of Delphi for Linux never made enough money to survive). But while I'm stuck with Windows for development, this idea of using emulation to run whatever software I want from a non-Microsoft operating system is more of a vision of the future than Linux in my opinion.

I don't know how hard it would be but in my opinion targeting Linux like that would be a mistake. A more interesting experiment would have been if they had tried to target Java. Because then you could run your applications everywhere Java runs.

Quote:

And from a developer perspective, I still want a full modern IDE development system, such as Delphi or even Visual Studio. And I don't know of something like that for Linux. There are still too many rough edges, and until you get the developers to write better apps for Linux, this will continue to be a problem. If you want developers to write for Linux, you need to make it easy for them.

For Java there's Eclipse/Netbeans that both seem to work well on Linux(they are both written in Java I think Smile). So that covers Java/C/C++ when it comes to IDE.

Quote:

Not to mention the issues with copy protection. Honestly, I'd develop for the Mac before Linux just because Mac users have a better track record with buying software. Linux has a horrible reputation for that...Linux users want everything for free. That's part of the reason why Kylix failed (well, that and some source compatibility and support issues). But I'm not going to write a MUD client for Linux unless I can protect it, and nothing like Armadillo for Windows exists in the Linux world.

The "problem" is that Linux uses an entirely different philosophy. It is about free software and open source. In a way it is a bit like in Star Trek where humanity instead of profiting has moved to some kind of philosophy to better themselves. If Kylix did not include its compiler/libraries for free then it asked for trouble. Because essentially it then tried to bring its own philosophy, convincing people that already are sharing compilers with eachother to abandon their current philosophy.

Linux is a free operating system that a large amount of people have created, for free. While an OS such as Windows XP has a more closed development model. It is amazing people have managed to create a free operating system. Maybe the OS isn't ready for everyone yet, but it is still a very impressive accomplishment.

It is also interesting to look at how this open source initiative is affecting the world. Some years ago I bought MSVC++ Standard edition at around $100. I got the development environment and a C/C++ compiler that did not generate optimized code. A few weeks later Microsoft released their VC++ compilers for free which included the full optimizing C/C++ compiler. Later on they released their free VC++ Express development environment. So you can now for free get a very nice IDE/compiler to develop C/C++/C# applications.

You also see this pattern in zMUD/cMUD. You use I think pcre/Lua/sqlite which are free libraries that probably would have been expensive had they been commercial. This website uses Apache, php/phpbb/mysql which are also free. There's a lot of free software avaible!

If you look around you probably notice a lot of software that you use that's free, but could have been commercial.
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Chiara
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Joined: 29 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:17 pm   
 
Quote:
Did you get your pair of sandals yet?


We live in Colorado. He's owned sandals for years. In Colorado, Tevas and Hiking boots are always appropriate footware.

Never fear. Zugg does not, will not, and never has drunk coffee, and granola is not low carb and is therefore off limits.
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Zugg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:28 pm   
 
Quote:
They're both money grabbing bastards.

Well, that is certainly true. I guess I feel like I've given one of them plenty of my money over the years, so now the other one deserves a cut ;) Unfortunately, *any* big company is going to get into that position/perception. Personally, I'd rather try to take a objective approach and just look at which OS works the "best". My current best marks go to Windows XP for the desktop, and Linux for the server. But I couldn't give a score to OSX because I had never seriously used it. Vista gets a horrible mark from me as you can imagine, for a large number of reasons that I've mostly detailed in other blog posts.

So, I really don't care of they are "money grabbing bastards" as long as they produce quality software. Microsoft is failing miserably at that job lately, so let's see if Apple can do any better. Also, it might be proprietary, but I still love the iPod Nano that I got for Christmas (although I still keep my music in plain Mp3 and never buy anything from the iTunes store)

Quote:
It is amazing people have managed to create a free operating system.

Yes, that's fine and amazing. But free products don't pay the bills. And as I've mentioned many times, I need to get PAID for my software. I think it's great that some people find the time around their normal jobs to contribute to open source software. I think it's great that some companies have found ways to survive on charging for service and support. For for the average one-person developer like me who is trying to support his family and pay his monthly mortgage and rising cost of living, the free open source model is a complete failure. And that is the main reason Linux is never going to "take off" on the desktop. Until developers can make a living with Linux, they aren't going to write the software for it.

Yes, I use some free software (Pcre, Lua, SQLite, Firefox, etc). But I didn't pick them because they were free. I picked them because of their high quality. If there was a commercial package that was reasonably affordable that had good support, then I'd be happy to use it too. I can't afford to pay $1000 for stuff like that, but it doesn't need to be free. I pay for a *lot* of software that is in the <$60 category. When it gets up to $100 or so, then I get really picky about what I use.

But really, I don't care that it's free. In fact, I'd much rather pay $50 or so for something and then get support for it, rather than getting something for free and then needing to figure it out myself or spend countless hours of Google searching. So just because I use free stuff right now doesn't necessarily mean it's the best business model. It's just the business model that is really being forced because of the huge demand for free stuff. So now you either get free stuff without much support, or you get incredibly expensive stuff aimed at businesses that have money to burn. It's getting harder and harder to find stuff in the middle ground which is inexpensive, high quality, and good support (like CMUD for example!)
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Fang Xianfu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:44 pm   
 
Guinn: i think the lentils and sandals come free these days. I guess people in colorado would pooh-pooh them, though, being such footwear connoisseurs.

Zugg wrote:
I bought it from a knowledgeable Apple person who gave me her card with her direct cell number and email. If I have trouble, I just call her.


Sure she didn't just fancy you? Perk of the surgery, perhaps? ;)

Also, the linux discussion seems to be turning into a philosophical one. Being an economist, i think my opinion will be pretty predictable; imagine a world where everything used the open-source philosophy. Take the veggies you like, but they might be rotten. Take the car you like, but the seat belts and airbags aren't finished. There's a reason capitalism has prospered. And i guess i'll stop there before the aforementioned sandal-wearers arrive ;)
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mr_kent
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Joined: 10 Oct 2000
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:26 am   
 
Thanks Fang!
My sandal-wearing wife just indulged in a tirade and I was feeling low. Your judicius jests provided the perfect cure. Now I need to find a towel to clean up this spattered diet coke...
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Rorso
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:03 am   
 
Fang Xianfu wrote:

Also, the linux discussion seems to be turning into a philosophical one. Being an economist, i think my opinion will be pretty predictable; imagine a world where everything used the open-source philosophy. Take the veggies you like, but they might be rotten. Take the car you like, but the seat belts and airbags aren't finished. There's a reason capitalism has prospered.

Try take a look at the development model instead. If you look at game developers they usually sign NDAs and keep quiet about their project for years until it is complete. Then look at open source software. Sure you will see a lot of buggy stuff but there usually is no NDA's, no secrets. As the development is open you use those versions of the software that in a closed source project would not have been released.

To compare it against your car comparison. An open car without quality would end like open source software with poor quality. Unused or improved.
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Fang Xianfu
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:39 am   
 
Okay, so it looks like this discussion is going ahead ;) i'm happy to oblige.

Why do ndas matter? You've established that open source don't use them, but not why that's an advantage. You touched on it when you mentioned secrets, but secrets on their own aren't fundamentally bad. Where's the beef?

And yes, you're correct that the car would be unused or improved. Ignoring the issue of fixed short-term supply because they don't apply to software markets, though, you'd still need a car. If there are no better cars yet, or at least he you can't find them, you're stuck using the unsafe one. There's no incentive for the market to provide something better.

And, besides all that, things that are substandard aren't used in any market system, capitalist or communist or whatever. It's not a unique advantage.
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Rorso
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:27 pm   
 
Fang Xianfu wrote:
Okay, so it looks like this discussion is going ahead ;) i'm happy to oblige.

Why do ndas matter? You've established that open source don't use them, but not why that's an advantage. You touched on it when you mentioned secrets, but secrets on their own aren't fundamentally bad. Where's the beef?

The benefit is that anyone could join an open source project, and discuss it with anyone they please. People between different but similar projects could cooperate on tough issues. Instead of just staring through the sky when someone ask you what you do daily, you could actually tell them. Other benefits are sharing knowledge so that to avoid reinventing the same method/idea/algorithm multiple times. It is a freedom for the individual as well. To be able to learn without fear of consequences and to be able to fully use everything they know.

Quote:

And yes, you're correct that the car would be unused or improved. Ignoring the issue of fixed short-term supply because they don't apply to software markets, though, you'd still need a car. If there are no better cars yet, or at least he you can't find them, you're stuck using the unsafe one. There's no incentive for the market to provide something better.

Even between open source projects there's competition. E.g Gnome vs KDE. Open source does not mean lack of competition. If anything it should mean even more competition as anyone could take the source and make their own improved version of the application.

In either case open source vs closed source is a very complicated subject. I think if everyone did open source software then it would be pretty nice. Though as people need income it probably wouldn't work very well at such a large scale. However it would be nice if there was something in between open and closed source.
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Seb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:35 pm   
 
There are benefits to the human race from the free exchange of ideas, knowledge and information, just as there are similar benefits of closed-source and patents (investment in research that wouldn't happen otherwise). But all this is still about information, not products. It is more difficult to see how giving cars (finished or unfinished) away for free would work, given they have a unit cost. The analogy works better if one considers an open-source design for a car, than the actual physical car. But some commercial software products take a sort of middle road, where they give away the libraries they made to make the software for free. This benefits everyone without ruining their business model (although some will see a lost opportunity to make some money on the side from selling the libraries). I don't have a strong philosophical opinion in any direction though (because I can see potential benefits of any course of action). I mean, look at M$. Yes, I don't have much respect for their way of doing business. But on the other hand, it caused Bill Gates to make a shed load of money, which in the end, he is giving away the majority of. (Do the means justify the cause? ... Although I suspect this wasn't his initial 'cause' anyway.)
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Zugg
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:59 pm   
 
OK, please don't make me lock this thread. Let's take the discussion of Open Source somewhere else. This is not the place to get into it. I know Rorso is a big fan of open source, and everyone knows that I am *not* a big fan, because there is no way to support small developers. I support inexpensive, but non-free software so that developers can pay their bills and make a living doing it.
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