Zugg Software :: View topic - I'm considering getting rid of the Theme in future versions

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:26 pm

I've been playing with Delphi 2007 and some of the new upgraded 3rd party components while I've been listening to the CodeRage II conference.

The new version of Developer Express components come with a new feature called ExpressSkins which provides custom skinning within all of their controls. Unfortunately, this skinning system only works for DevExpress and isn't easy to use to skin other 3rd party components (or my own components). It is also a bit slow, causes flicker when forms are resized, and has some bugs in it. So, this isn't going to be very useful.

However, a side effect of this new code is that my existing Theme Engine that is used in CMUD doesn't work with it. It would take a lot of changes to the new DevExpress components to get it working with the existing Theme Engine, and I'm afraid that all of those changes might make the DevExpress components unstable.

I also found that Delphi 2007 itself doesn't work well with my existing Theme Engine and just getting the Theme Engine stuff to compile within Delphi 2007 is going to be a pain. There is a newer version of the Theme Engine that supposedly supports Vista, but the support from the author is pretty bad, and honestly, the Theme Engine code is some of the worst 3rd party code that I use in CMUD (and has been heavily "fixed" by myself when I was working on zApp a couple of years ago).

Given that Delphi is going to have a new version next year with Unicode support, I really need to start reducing my dependency on 3rd-party controls, and try to only stick with vendors that write high-quality code and actively maintain, support, and update their controls (such as DevExpress).

So, because of all of these issues, I am seriously considering getting rid of the custom theme/skin feature in CMUD. Probably not in the upcoming 2.x public release, but probably early next year when I get CMUD compiled within Delphi 2007 and upgrade the 3rd party components.

I apologize to anyone who really loves the theme/skin feature. Perhaps later in the future when the DevExpress ExpressSkin components get better then I'll be able to use them. But I think removing the theme/skin will result in a much more stable and robust application that will also work better with other Windows enhancement products. We've already seen this in the 2.13 version where the Theme engine is actually disabled by default.

Anyway, I wanted to let people know about this and solicit any feedback on this that you might have.

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:49 pm

I don't think there's anyone who's particularly amorous about the theme engine. If there's one thing that unites MUD users, it's a lack of affection for eye candy ;) It's nice to have a bit, but if it's gone it won't be a heartbreaker.

I certainly won't miss it.

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

Honestly, I'd leave theme-ing to the third party apps that do it properly such as windowblinds/etc... it'd be a more constructive use of your time to make CMUD "theme engine friendly" rather than continuing to maintain a proprietary theme engine - after all, if someone's keen to use a theme on their PC, they probably want it to be uniform accross all their apps - office, photoshop, etc rather than have different themes for each program?

I can't remember how "Aero" friendly CMUD was when I still had Vista on my PC, but if it plays friendly with both Aero and Windowblinds, there's no real reason to have your own theme engine.

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:35 pm

Yeah.. I can't say that I really used the theme engine outside of looking at a few of the other themes.

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

I can say with absolute certainty that I have never used anything other then the default theming. My personal opinion it that you have rather good aesthetic taste. I have never actually seen the colors to clash when they shouldn't, or not clash when they should; the eye is always properly drawn to what it should notice and that is what matters.

Wizard Joined: 03 Mar 2001 Posts: 1127 Location: London

I wouldn't miss it if it went.

A few weeks ago someone asked if they can have a web browser inside CMUD and you [Zugg] said "No! Absolutely not, there are web browsers for that sort of thing".
There are theming programs for theming, I'd have no problems leaving CMUD to just handle the mudding.

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:20 pm

I'm not a "power user" or an "uber programmer" by any means...

I don't really mess with the themes.

My vote would be that it would be fine to not include theme support in future versions.

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:33 am

Only time I ever mess with the theme stuff is when some suggests it may be the cause of a problem i'm having.

GURU Joined: 23 Dec 2000 Posts: 4834 Location: USA

If removing themes means more features/fixes in less time, I'm all for it. Well, actually, no, remove themes unconditionally--even if doing so is just wasted effort that could be better spent elsewhere.

It's always better to have a rock-solid product that the UI can be adapted to rather than the other way around.

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:21 am

Looks like it's unanimous! It will actually feel really good to get rid of the crappy ThemeEngine code. When I was reading some Delphi newsgroups today I came across at least two other vendors that sell better theme/skin stuff who are supporting their products and keeping up with the latest versions of Delphi. So if I ever want to revisit this issue, there are other options. But I think I agree that these days it's more about consistent look-and-feel of the desktop rather than making one application look "different". So supporting Aero, WindowBlinds, etc is more important.

The Theme/Skin stuff was more important a couple of years ago as a feature of zApp. It sort of came along "for free" when I built CMUD from scratch since I reused a lot of zApp code. It became apparent pretty early that while a "color scheme" was important, actually modifying the frame of a window just cause compatibility problems. v2.13 already disables this by default and it will be nice to just get rid of those code changes altogether.

So, I'll go ahead and do this when I do the Delphi 2007 upgrade in early January. Thanks for giving me your opinions!

Wizard Joined: 22 Mar 2007 Posts: 2320

I too only used the theme engine to look at the alternatives, then went back to default. Dump it if it feels good!

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Personally I like the look of cMUD when using the "Office XP" theme which is the default. I guess removing the theme engine will cause it to look like when using "No theme"? It isn't bad but I prefer the Office XP theme.

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:10 pm

Yes, the top couple of "themes" just change colors and some internal control painting. They are not "true" themes in that they don't change the window borders. I'll be able to keep those without any problem, and might add additional ways to control the color scheme. And OfficeXP will remain the default color scheme even when the theme system is removed.

This gets confusing because there are actually 2 different theme engines that are involved. The first is the Windows Theme Engine...this is the API built into Windows XP (and Vista) to handle theming. The second is the CMUD Theme Engine, which can load it's own *.msstyles file to change the skin of CMUD itself.

The "Normal", "No Theme", "Flat", and "OfficeXP" selections have the CMUD Theme Engine turned OFF, and just control how the Windows Theme Engine is called. In "Normal" mode, all painting is passed directly to the Windows Theme Engine. In "No theme", the Windows Theme Engine is disabled, so you get more of a Win98 look/feel (although Windows is still controlling the window border/caption. Flat is a variation of "No theme". OfficeXP is a variation of "Normal" where the color palette is changed to a blue style (well, it actually gets it's color from Windows, and if you have the Silver Luna theme in Windows, then you get silver colors instead of blue).

The themes listed below "OfficeXP" activate the CMUD Theme Engine. Notice that these themes cause the window border and caption to change. These are the themes that will be gone when I remove the CMUD Theme Engine. they cause incompatibilities because they are changing the way the window border and captions are drawn, and this is the problem.

Sorcerer Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 706 Location: USA

Get rid of the theme engine. That means less code for you to worry about. I think 99% of the users don't even bother with the themes.

Adept Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 250 Location: Austin, TX

I, too, shall pile on. Let the Theme Engine be gone! Save programmer cycles for other things.

Sorcerer Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 715

I also agree completely. The only theme I've even used is the Office XP theme. But could really care less :)
I use your clients for their multi-window control power and extensive scripting abilities. I've written several
GAMES using zMUD - to the point that my character becomes a fully automated card dealer, craps roller, etc.

Wizard Joined: 14 Aug 2004 Posts: 1269

The only themes I've ever even tried are the ones that don't use the "CMUD Theme Engine". So, I too say get rid of it. One thing I will say though is that if I ever get into using CMUD Pro at work (for SSH), a TeSSH theme for it would be great (so that it looks like TeSSH)! Smile

Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:33 am

I went through the themes once in Cmud and ended up at the default anyway.

I don't even bother with the themes in XP/Vista except to turn things off after a new install.

Apprentice Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Posts: 113

What are themes?

In seriousness, I wouldn't miss them. In my own opinion, they add little to the client other than bugs. :P

Wizard Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 1201

I disagree with all of you. I like the OddWood Theme. I always wanted a way to change the Theme on Zmud too. It's nice to be able to change the look once in awhile. Also who the heck still uses Window Blinds? I don't. I don't want to change the theme of all windows. I do, however, want to be able to change the theme of the client when I feel like it.

Wizard Joined: 03 Mar 2001 Posts: 1127 Location: London

Well I guess someone had to like them Twisted Evil

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:26 pm

Yep, can't please everyone no matter what I do. Sorry oldguy2, but you are in the minority on this one. Someday if there is a more reliable theme system then I might add it back again. But I would have thought that you'd be the first one to prefer stability over themes.

Also, if you were using the OddWood theme all the time (which was one of the buggier themes), that could explain some of the weird problems that you had sometimes that nobody else could reproduce.

Sorcerer Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 715

I've already stated my opinion, but I'll add to it a little. Yes, the themes are nice and it would be nice to be able to change it now and then. But, stability is far more important. What would be better IMO is for the OS themes (Office XP and such) were dynamic. Any theme loaded into the system themes would be usable. But I have no clue how hard this would be :)

Wizard Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 1201

Well stability is the most important. I was just disagreeing that no one used the themes, and after what happened right after I made the above post it would probably be better to remove them anyway unfortunately. By the way, I was using OddWood originally when I had all those weird things like my status bar scrolling up the screen and sending variable values to the mud. Neutral