Zugg Software :: View topic

Newbie Joined: 14 May 2006 Posts: 3

Hello. I've heard some pretty fantastic things about zMUD, so I figured I would give it a try. Upon connecting to a MOO, I changed a few settings and was relatively satisfied with the results. Things were looking hopeful until I scrolled up. When that happened, the screen split into two sections; the section containing the buffer and the section containing the real-time events. I found this to be rather annoying, so I rushed to the preferences. To my disappointment, I discovered that there was no (apparent, anyway) option to disable this feature. Not a problem, I said to myself, I'll just drag the sneaky bar to the very top! That will show them! Oh my. Now I can't scroll. Fine, I'll drag it to the bottom! Alas, now I can't see new things as they happen. So then I decided to come to the forums, where a quick search revealed a post saying it was impossible to disable this. And other posts containing random informations that really didn't pertain to what I was searching for.

So essentially, my post is to ask if there is a way to disable the split-screen scrolling feature. And if no way exists, my post is to request that the developers add such an option. From what I've heard and read, zMUD would be the best client for what I would like to do, but I find I can't use it with the split scrolling.

Mmm, verbosity.

Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 1:47 am

The split-screen scrolling is one of the most popular features in zMUD. What is it that you want it to do? If you drag the splitter to the bottom, then you are just viewing the scrollback without any live text...that's how other clients work without any split screen ability. Drag it to the top turns prevents you from seeing any scrollback, so that's probably not what you want.

How about just living with it for a while. Yes, it's a bit different, but the ability to look at your scrollback without it scrolling away along with the ability to still see live text is a very important feature. Without being able to see the live text, my character would have gotten killed by stuff coming into the room while I was reading the scrollback many times.

Newbie Joined: 14 May 2006 Posts: 3

It may well be one of the more popular features, but it's not one that I would desire. I'm afraid I don't see why it can't be an option to disable it. It seems like everything else in the world is an option. To answer your question as to what I want, I will describe what happens when I use VMoo or tkMOO. In a single window, I scroll up. If I have scroll lock enabled, any new information that would normally be displayed to me waits at the bottom, much like if I were to drag the dividing line in zMUD all the way to the bottom. The difference, however, is that in VMoo or tkMOO, if I'm at the very bottom of the scrollback, I still see anything new coming in.

Also, I can understand why some people may enjoy this feature. I have no doubt that it's very popular and has saved many people from horrific death in their various MUDding adventures. For me, however, it is a distraction and rather irritating.

It seems, also, that I have my answer and will continue my quest for a decent MUD client. Thank you.

Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 3:37 am

Sorry it didn't work out for you. Most people don't want the new incoming text to move the scrollback since it makes the scrollback nearly impossible to read on busy MUDs with lots of scrolling. I don't know how you read your scrollback in VMoo or tkMOO if it's always adding the new stuff to the bottom. There just isn't any way to make it an option the way the zMUD screen output works, sorry.

Magician Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 482

Well in the hope he rechecks this post

Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 5:51 am

True. The split bar will also go away if you drag the scrollbar down back down to the bottom, or if you press the Ctrl-Z or the ScrollLock key. In CMUD I have also improved this a bit so that pressing the Scroll-Down key when you are already at the bottom will also remove the split bar. It never occured to me that maybe the problem was that he didn't know how to "unsplit" the screen again, so thanks for posting this reminder edb.

Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 10:18 pm

Yay, wow, nice one!!! Scroll down while at bottom removes the split. Been waiting ages for that :)

Newbie Joined: 14 May 2006 Posts: 3

I did know how to disable it, but I appreciate your trying to help, edb6377.

I'm revisiting this topic because a friend of mine read it and, in an attempt to help me better explain how the scrolling I'm talking about works, made a video. If you are interested in seeing what it is I'm talking about with scrolling, you will need the XviD codec (which, I'm told, can be found at http://www.koepi.org/xvid.shtml) to view the videos below.

http://www.brainferrets.com/other/scrolllockscrollingdemonstration.avi
This video demonstrates scrolling as I attempted, seemingly unsuccessfully, to describe it.

http://www.brainferrets.com/other/vmoosplitscreen.avi
This video just shows how VMoo has a split screen option as well.

At any rate, I hope this at least serves to clarify what I was talking about.

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:06 am

Btw, the codec link you gave doesn't work. I got it at http://www.xvidmovies.com/codec/

One other difference is that in zMUD, you already have a fixed command line at the bottom of the screen. You are not typing into the MUD window directly like you are in VMoo. So most of the time in zMUD, you leave the splitscreen toggled off and it works just like you showed VMoo when the scrolllock is off and the scrollback is at the bottom. That's the same as the normal zMUD mode.

zMUD scrollback is like VMoo with the scrolllock feature enabled. But you now have three regions: the fixed command line, the new text area, and the scrollback area. Dragging the splitter to the bottom gives you the command line and the scrollback, just like in VMoo.

What zMUD doesn't have is the mode in VMoo where scrolllock is disabled and the scrollback text scrolls. As I've said, since zMUD scrolls text much faster than other MUD clients, the scrollback becomes unreadable if it scrolls with the live text on a busy MUD, so nobody ever wanted that feature.

But the VMoo feature isn't really a split screen scrollback...it's more of a combined MUD window and command line, whereas zMUD has a seperate command line.

So I think I'm clear on what you are talking about. But the bottom line is that zMUD just works differently than what you are used to.

Newbie Joined: 17 May 2006 Posts: 3

Hey, I'm the guy who made those videos... Hopefully, I can describe it a little better than Filcher did (Or I did, in the video. :) )

First, let me clear up a few things:
VMoo does NOT combine the command line with the MOO window. That's just how I have my colours set up. It's a seperate command line, just like zMUD.

Here's exactly how VMoo works:

With scrolllock OFF, single scrollback window: If you've scrolled up and new text comes in, it jumps back down.

With scrolllock ON, single scrollback window: If you've scrolled up and new text comes in, the window stays at its current position and the new text waits at the bottom for you. The EXCEPTION to this is if the window is already all the way at the bottom. New text causes it to scroll normally if you've scrolled all the way down.

With scrollock OFF, splitscreen window: The bottom window cannot scroll. The top window can scroll, but it jumps down if new text comes in.

With scrollock ON, splitscreen window: The bottom window cannot scroll. The top window can scroll but DOES NOT jump down when new text comes in UNLESS the window is scrolled all the way down. This is exactly how zMUD functions.

So it CAN work like zMUD if you prefer, but what Filcher wants is an option to make zMUD function with a single text window and a single command line, in the same way VMoo does, and for scroll lock to prevent it from jumping down when new text comes in UNLESS it's already at the bottom.

By the way: I'd like the same feature that Filcher wants. :) VMoo doesn't work well with MUDs, unfortunately, and I'm considering purchasing zMUD to play MUDs, but this is the one problem preventing me from making the purchase.

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:54 pm

I can't see why you would wish for that. Using VMoo in the same way as zMUD you don't have to worry about catching up with what has come in since you froze the scroll as you can read it or glance at it as it comes in at the same time as reading the scrollback.

If it is about reading the catchup and getting confused that the split screen doesn't switch off when you get to the bottom of the scroll back buffer then this will be fixed in CMUD since as soon as you get to the bottom of the scroll back buffer it will turn off the split screen, something I'm looking forward to.

If it's just about wanting something to work in a way that you are used to then as Zugg said you will have to adjust to a different way of doing things. At least you can emulate how zMUD works in VMoo so perhaps you need to do that for a while at which point the swap over won't be so hard.

Newbie Joined: 17 May 2006 Posts: 3

The problem for me is that having two windows disorients me. I'll be reading the buffer and new text will come in, so I'll be switching back and forth and won't end up reading either very well. It's not a matter of getting used to a new way of doings things for me, it's a matter of being unable to read well. That makes the splitscreen less efficient for me (And I have spent a few days with zMUD, trying to get used to it, as well as multiple attempts on VMoo).

I'm sorry if this comes off as rude, but I don't see what's so difficult about adding an extra option... If I were making a MUD client, I'd put as many options as possible in (Maybe in an "Advanced" menu, with a Basic menu if it gets too confusing) the program, that way more users will be able to do things exactly the way they want.

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:55 pm

So i sounds like you just want an option for zMUD to unsplit the screen and scroll back down to the bottom when new text is received? That's the only mode that I can see being different than what you can already do.

I'll consider this just because it's possible that on some quiet MUDs where there isn't much live text coming in that it might be useful. Maybe MOOs are different from MUDs in this way. As I've said, on the MUDs I have played, there is new text coming in every few seconds, so any scrollback that returned to the bottom with new text received would be useless.

But using zMUD as a more traditional telnet client where there isn't incoming text, then maybe a simpler option like this would be useful. It will depend upon how easy it is to add this to CMUD. Sure, I like to have options for everything, and just looking at the existing zMUD Preferences screen should show you this. But sometimes options are not simple to add. I'm not going to do something that takes weeks of effort or requires a redesign of zMUD just to satisfy a small minority of people.

But when I'm working on CMUD in the coming months, I'll keep it in mind in case it's easy to do.

Newbie Joined: 17 May 2006 Posts: 3

Well, thank you for considering it! :) I'll remember to check for CMUD in the future and consider purchasing it.

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:33 pm

For now here is an idea for you to try:

Drag the split screen down so it is only one line high that way it is less likely to draw your attention away from the scrollback. Continue reading the scrollback until you get to the end (new incoming text) and then turn the split screen off.

Magician Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 482

Magician Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 482

Additional information why cant you do this already