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Lasivian
Wanderer


Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 76
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:18 pm   

Unfortunate things regarding Cmud and Zugg
 
Ok, in the interest of being an honest and maybe more meaningful pain in the butt i'll clarify things now that i'm a little more cooled off and thought about it.

I'll admit I can "afford" to get Cmud if I find it worth getting.

I agree that his original pricing structure on updates wasen't viable in the long term.

And I have to say that this comment:

mr_kent wrote:
Thank you Lasivian and edb6377 for helping Zugg get started. As a very satisfied, long-time user I want to express my gratitude for your part in making zMUD possible.


I feel should have come from Zugg.

I just kinda felt totally kicked to the curb as one of "ye olde supporters", that doesn't meen I want to see Zugg go bankrupt, that doesn't mean I want a free copy of the software, it just rather felt like "why should I keep supporting him? In his public view i'm just someone who's not currently paying who doesn't need to be thrown any kind of bone to stick around anymore".

ABOVE EDITS - April 19th, 2006

Original post follows:


Yes, I understand it's a rewrite, that you put in alot of time and effort on it.

But I have some problems with your thinking.

#1 You're changing your business model. Upgrades will now cost more money every 2 years. This smacks of you finding that your "hobby" of Zmud has now become a business, and that you're getting greedy for more money. I hear "Well, you can keep using Zmud, but we're not going to support it". And I think "Well, let's change the name on the whole thing so we can charge for a new product, but try and hang onto the Zmud users as best as we can since they're already a captive audience!".

#2 You're giving "limited" upgrades. I bought Zmud quite some time ago, long before 1999 i'm certain, what makes us less reliable customers? I for one also bought your AC Explorer software. And yet my reliability is getting tossed aside with "too bad, so sad". Thanks a whole hell of alot.

#3 You've decimated my trust. Your actions have become self-fulfilling, you're showing that the software is not the primary concern, money is.

If I sound mad you can bet I am, maybe you shouldn't have made such large promises when you started Zmud if you didn't have the moral fortitude to stick with them.


Last edited by Lasivian on Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Larkin
Wizard


Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 1113
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:33 pm   
 
Your personal attacks are completely unwarranted, especially since I'm betting that you have not been in his situation yourself. I think that what he is asking is more than fair here, and Zuggsoft is most definitely not going to become the next Microsoft. You pay $20-30 for a good product and you're going to begrudge him the fee for a totally new product? He is even taking our ideas, discussing them with us, and incorporating the ones that make sense into the application. I'd challenge you to find anyone else who can offer you this level of support for the same price.

No one is forcing you to upgrade, or even to use zMUD. You make the choice to upgrade (after seven years?!?) to the innovative new product or you trudge along with your trusty current product.

Moral fortitude? Please. How about a little appreciation for the effort he puts into the software?
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Zugg
MASTER


Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23377
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:36 pm   
 
1) zMUD has been a business for over 8 years. It stopped being a hobby when I started working on zMUD full time in 1998. I've discussed the business aspects in many other posts and in my New Years letter, so I'm not going to repeat myself here. The bottom line is that zMUD *is* a business and the free upgrade model no longer supports the business. I'm not "greedy for money", but I *do* need to pay my bills and support my family, and zMUD isn't doing that right now. CMUD isn't zMUD, but nothing I say will convince you of that until you try it. I'm not just changing the name and charging for it, I'm making *significant* changes and enhancements that were not possible to do with zMUD to maintain compatibility with older versions of Windows and with existing zMUD scripts. When I said that upgrades for zMUD would be free, I *never* promised that I'd continue making upgrades forever. 10 years for a single software product is a *long* time.

But there will be plenty of people like you who will never be happy about this. Fortunately, the vast majority of people are excited and looking forward to CMUD and I just had to realize that I can't please everyone. So I'm trying to please the majority and will just have to deal with the minority that are unhappy. It's not like I'm taking zMUD away from you are forcing you to upgrade.

2) This is standard software practice. No company gives discounts or free upgrades for people who bought their software 10 years ago. The reason for providing discounts for people who have bought zMUD recently is to ensure that people feel secure continuing to buy zMUD even though a new product is planned. People don't have to wait for the new product...they can buy zMUD now and get the free upgrade.

3) Sorry you feel this way. You can go read the older post in the zMUD Discussion Forum from last August where I took a poll of people's feelings regarding a "zMUDXP" product (which later became CMUD). You will see that you are in the minority.

Yes, I probably should have never made the "free upgrade" promise 10 years ago. Yeah, it's easy to look back in hindsight. But the fact of life right now is that either you get a new client called CMUD and you start paying for upgrades, or you don't get anything at all. I can't support my family with a product that doesn't bring in enough money. In either of these cases you don't get any future versions of zMUD. At least with the path I have chosen, people who are interested in something better than zMUD can get a new product.
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Lasivian
Wanderer


Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 76
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:32 pm   
 
"But the fact of life right now is that either you get a new client called CMUD and you start paying for upgrades, or you don't get anything at all."

uh, should I be thanking you? I suggest you hire someone to do your PR with your new income.
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Larkin
Wizard


Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 1113
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 pm   
 
Lasivian wrote:
"But the fact of life right now is that either you get a new client called CMUD and you start paying for upgrades, or you don't get anything at all."

uh, should I be thanking you? I suggest you hire someone to do your PR with your new income.


Yes. Yes, you should.
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Guinn
Wizard


Joined: 03 Mar 2001
Posts: 1127
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:01 pm   
 
Might I just offer the alternative announcement to CMUD if everything went as you wished, Lasivian:

"Dear zMUD Users,
Zuggsoft is not receiving enough money to survive. I will have to now seek alternative means to make a living. zMUD 7.21 will be the final release and all support and future upgrades will cease from this point forwards. Sorry guys, but I'd hate to break a 10 year old promise and would prefer to withdraw the product entirely"

Quote:
I suggest you hire someone to do your PR with your new income.

I quite like the no BS approach. I bought zMUD about 6 years ago, and the $30 bucks for that period of time... or $5 a year... or 0.05GBP a week seems like pretty decent value for a piece of software that I've used more than anything apart from the OS it sits upon.
Though having said that, when I think that I could have bought a chocolate bar once every 10 weeks for the price of zMUD... damn, now I feel cheated. No, really.
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kyishi
Novice


Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 31
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:11 pm   
 
I am not to bothered about not getting any more free upgrades Zugg did a good job at providing them so far and i deffinatly got my moneys worth, and i probably use it more than my os since i have to buy a new one every year Twisted Evil but i am happy to buy the new CMUD when its ready because Zmud has been so good and so cheap for what you get.
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Tarn
GURU


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 853
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:14 pm   
 
Lasivian wrote:
"But the fact of life right now is that either you get a new client called CMUD and you start paying for upgrades, or you don't get anything at all."

uh, should I be thanking you? I suggest you hire someone to do your PR with your new income.


Please keep it civil.

I will make one comment on your first post:
Quote:

I bought Zmud quite some time ago, long before 1999 i'm certain, what makes us less reliable customers?


There's nothing personal going on (your selection of the word "reliable" seems like taking a revenue policy as a personal attack).

Zugg has been very open in the past to taking people's concerns into account when formulating his policies. Being calm and clear will help a lot in letting him understand your concerns, and in preventing backlash from other posters. A good example to look at is the evolution of the copy protection policies from 5.55 to now.

-Tarn
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Rorso
Wizard


Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:49 pm   Re: Unfortunate things regarding Cmud and Zugg
 
Lasivian wrote:
Yes, I understand it's a rewrite, that you put in alot of time and effort on it.

But I have some problems with your thinking.

#1 You're changing your business model. Upgrades will now cost more money every 2 years. This smacks of you finding that your "hobby" of Zmud has now become a business, and that you're getting greedy for more money. I hear "Well, you can keep using Zmud, but we're not going to support it". And I think "Well, let's change the name on the whole thing so we can charge for a new product, but try and hang onto the Zmud users as best as we can since they're already a captive audience!".

zMUD has almost always been a business. It isn't a free MUD client as in freeware. A goal a company might have is to maximize its return of investment. Which is indeed a greedy approach, however competing companies can compete by lowering prices of their product. So in the end you can hope that the greedy company will perform worse - forcing them to lower the price of their product as well or make an even better product.

In the case of zMUD look at it like this. Would you wan't to see Zuggsoft release a new MUD client, or see the company shutdown? Clearly few, except perhaps some competitors, would want that. If you think about it that is what his upgrade policy would mean. Then there would be no more zMUD or any other MUD client from Zuggsoft for that matter.

Quote:

#2 You're giving "limited" upgrades. I bought Zmud quite some time ago, long before 1999 i'm certain, what makes us less reliable customers? I for one also bought your AC Explorer software. And yet my reliability is getting tossed aside with "too bad, so sad". Thanks a whole hell of alot.

Say AC Explorer had had more player interest. That is it would have made it possible for Zuggsoft to make decent profit from it, don't you think it would have gotten more support?

Then you also have to take into account that AC Explorer also relied on, in a way, hacking the game client. It is possible(I don't know) that those games banned such things in their EULAs(some companies have the funny view that if someone tries to make money from their game, e.g by making tools for it then they have to ban it. If it is ethically wrong or not to make such tools is a quite big ethical discussion).

The reason zMUD always has gotten much more attention than any other Zuggsoft product is because of its popularity. Anyone serious about MUDding knows what zMUD is.

Quote:

#3 You've decimated my trust. Your actions have become self-fulfilling, you're showing that the software is not the primary concern, money is.

How would he keep Zuggsoft in business if he wasn't the slightest concerned about money? Interest in zMUD seem to be too small to run it on donations like some of the big free software projects. As far as I know Zuggsoft actually had a donation link a while.

I wonder if adding some of those Google banners to the website could help some.

Quote:

If I sound mad you can bet I am, maybe you shouldn't have made such large promises when you started Zmud if you didn't have the moral fortitude to stick with them.

Calm down Shocked. Remember that Bill Gates said something in the lines of "640 kb ought to be enough for anybody" and today we are happy he didn't enforce that vision!

In either case I don't think anyone is happy about what happened. I surely enjoyed getting free updates. However I doubt the upgrade policy would have changed if Zugg hadn't somehow been forced to do so. From my experience Zugg doesn't seem like a greedy person.
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Lasivian
Wanderer


Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 76
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:35 pm   
 
Perhaps i'd be happier if new functionality were added that I benefit from.

However right now the existing zmud isn't living up to my needs, so while i'm looking for fixes along comes the fact that zmud is going EOL, and here comes cmud that ALSO isn't going to have the capabilities I need.

Along with the fact I find it a true pain in the butt to be told "you can pay for upgrades every 2 years", that's nice, glad the product is going to need to be fixed based on a clack not based on need.

*shrug*
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Guinn
Wizard


Joined: 03 Mar 2001
Posts: 1127
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:48 pm   
 
Only functionality you've mentioned is having zmud suddenly develop remote access properties. Perhaps if you let us know exactly what features you're missing then Zugg will try and include them. Or is it that you're sulking now and just claiming the product doesn't work right because you're in a mood?

*shrug*
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Chiara
Site Admin


Joined: 29 Sep 2000
Posts: 332
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:57 pm   
 
Quote:
However right now the existing zmud isn't living up to my needs, so while i'm looking for fixes along comes the fact that zmud is going EOL, and here comes cmud that ALSO isn't going to have the capabilities I need.

Along with the fact I find it a true pain in the butt to be told "you can pay for upgrades every 2 years", that's nice, glad the product is going to need to be fixed based on a clack not based on need.


Have you sent Zugg feature requests? Have you asked about the features you need? Zugg has added A LOT of new things to the first beta of CMUD, but that isn't the whole plan by a long shot. zMUD improvements have been user driven for years. That will continue with CMUD, along with Zugg's own ideas, and things that are now possible based on technology improvements.

Upgrades have ALWAYS been a mix of fixes and new features. CMUD will be the same.
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edb6377
Magician


Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 482

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:58 pm   
 
I will say what i have to say on this. I also purchased zmud back in the day and might have some input here.

He feels much the same way i do in a certain regard. WE (Those who purchased the product long ago when zmud wasnt a big market) supported the product in the beginning) helped fund the beginning of zmud.

I myself have purchased at least 4 zmud licenses, zmapper and a couple of his other products. ZMUD was given under the premise of a free upgrade. Having been one of the founding payees of ZMUD itself i would have expected that there would have been some thanks for getting this going, Due to zugg's policy of free upgradability you will recieve C-MUD at zero cost but you will be responsible for the first upgrade fee when your first version license is expired. (Circa 2008). That is what i would have expected from ZUGG regarding his policy. This effectually thanks the people who helped the business get going (not that 50% off isnt a discount) just that all people who purchased after X get it for free so if i hadnt helped him by purchasing a product which at the time needed funding badly i would be getting the product for free.

I personally am OK with paying the fee because i have no choice. Its either that or hold onto an out of date piece of software with no upgrades coming in the future. I would have been excited had i learned that ZUGG had decided to phase out his 10 year old promise by offering the first run of the new software with 0 cost and payable upgrades in the future.

I know that may sound wrong but i TO SOME degree understand how he feels. We helped get this product going with early purchasing. Its like telling the guy that started with your company on day 1 thanks but the guy that just got hired is getting the bonus. He'd be pissed too.

I would have like to have seen it go this way.

ANNOUNCEMENT
Code:

To thank the loyal customers who helped get me going originally anyone who purchased zmud between its inception and The day my wife and I got married will be receiving the CMUD product for free.  By accepting this free upgrade you are taking into effect that no longer will you have free upgrades for life but rather you will have to pay for your first upgrade in 2008.

In addition for those people who are interested in purchasing zmud. you dont have to wait till i release C-MUD to purchase.  Any purchased made on the day of this announcement and beyond will also recieve the upgrade for no cost.

If on the other hand you have purchased zmud between January 2001 - present you will recieve CMUD at 50% off as a thanks for being a loyal customer.
Zugg


That is what i would have expected and i am disappointed that it isnt that way. Wink


Last edited by edb6377 on Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Taz
GURU


Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1395
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:00 pm   
 
What need isn't being met? Discuss the need, in all likelihood if it is a legitimate need that others can see a use in it may find it's way into CMUD.
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Taz
GURU


Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1395
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:12 pm   
 
As regard to the payment issue I've purchased zMUD a couple of times and for all I know I may qualify for the 50% version of the product. I can tell you this though, I will be paying for a full version of CMUD.

Why?

Because since finding out about zMUD and browsing these forums I can see that Zugg Software is being run by a decent, caring and thoughtful human being. Zugg shares his business problems with his customers rather than hides them, he does his best to keep us happy while at the same time make a living. For this I will support him in anyway that I can for as long as he is in business, which I for one hope is for a long time to come.
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Chiara
Site Admin


Joined: 29 Sep 2000
Posts: 332
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:16 pm   
 
Quote:
That is what i would have expected and i am disappointed that it isnt that way.


We regret disapointing some of our longtime users, but lets be honest here. We can't stay afloat that long. End of discussion.
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Zugg
MASTER


Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23377
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:00 am   
 
The issue of the 50% discount going to more recent users instead of the longtime users is also pretty simple to understand:

The people who bought zMUD a *long* time ago have gotten the most value for their money. They've gotten the most free upgrades. So they've already benefited the most. People who have bought zMUD more recently have gotten fewer upgrades and therefore deserve a price-break because they were expecting free upgrades and didn't get as many.

As I already said, it's also standard practice to give discounts to more recent customers. Everyone does this. It's called "upgrade protection" so that you don't spend money on something right before it is upgraded and then screwed having to pay for it again right away.

If anything, giving a 50% discount going back so far is unheard of (we are talking about 7 years here, which covers about 80% of existing zMUD users). Most companies would give free upgrades to people who bought the old product within the last couple of months and wouldn't do anything for previous users. So I already think I'm being pretty generous here.

Also, saying that you are upset because CMUD doesn't add anything new (or doesn't add the feature you want) is just plain silly since we are talking about a product that hasn't even been released yet and you really have no idea what CMUD will have. Also, as people have mentioned, I always listen to polite suggestions from people on features to add. Most of the features ever added to zMUD were suggested by customers, and CMUD will be handled the same way.

Of course, the worst way to get your feature added is to be abusive and rude.
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Lasivian
Wanderer


Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 76
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:32 am   
 
"The people who bought zMUD a *long* time ago have gotten the most value for their money."

And we were also the first ones to throw our hard-earned dollars at you. We trusted in your beginnings when you didn't even have your own website, now we just get treated like we're the longest-term leechers.
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Rainchild
Wizard


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 1551
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:45 am   
 
I wasn't going to dignify this topic with a response, but it seems to have gotten out of hand.

Seriously guys, give Zugg a break. If he doesn't charge for upgrades, then he will go out of business. No business means no zMUD, no CMUD, nothing. It means we'll all be swapping to tintin++ or mushclient or something. End of story.

I can't believe you are whining over a measily $20 that you paid many many years ago. MMORPG's charge close to that to play for just one month. If you consider that zMUD has been with you for a minimum of 6 years and you have been using it to play online games over those six years (and probably had more fun using it than you would on WoW, EQ, or any of those games), $20 is $1056.40 less than the fee you would have paid for those 6 years of online gaming. If you consider that the going rate for a 'year' of online gaming these days is $179.40 ($14.95 a month) then two years of CMUD gaming should cost you $358.80 but he's not asking anywhere near that. He's asking for the equivalent of 2 months of online gaming, and you get updates bundled for two years - an exceptional deal by today's standards.

And FYI since 1998 I've purchased 4 copies of Zmud (more if you count the copies I bought as gifts for friends), 2 copies of zMapper, and a copy of eMobius (which never got released) and do you see me complaining? No. I'm with Taz on this. I will be purchasing the full priced version of CMUD regardless that some of my registration codes are eligable for the 50% upgrade price. I am happy to pay 2 months worth of online gaming every 2 years to keep my CMUD up to date.

$29.95 = 2 months of online gaming
$29.95 = 3 days worth of lunch
$29.95 = half a meal at a nice restaurant
$29.95 = a taxi ride home after a night with the boys
$29.95 = a round of beers for the boys
$29.95 = 2 dvd's
$29.95 = half an xbox 360 game
$29.95 = an older computer game on special
$29.95 = half a tank of petrol
$29.95 = 10 bottles of spilt milk... and it's certainly not worth crying over spilt milk :p
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Vijilante
SubAdmin


Joined: 18 Nov 2001
Posts: 5182

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:12 am   
 
Greeting Lasivian,

You seem like quite an unhappy fellow. I should truly be just as upset as you, I first purchased zMud on November 19, 1999 for the astronomical sum of $25. I have since used that same license for months of enjoyment. In fact, I have about 31 day logged in on my most recent MUD and I have only been playing there for 6 months. I of course am not upset even though I many reasons to be.
1. I like helping other in these forums...where Zuggsoft to go out of business then I would not have this wonderful forum.
2. It doesn't stop there even, I also did a pretty large rewrite and some on going work on the help file for zMud.
Again just looking to be helpful to those like yourself.
3. I have actually, since 1999, purchased another 13 licenses for zMud and officially gave one to some whiner. Then Zugg wisely got a gifting system working.
4. Oh yeah, and somewhere along the way I felt that all that didn't even cover the value I had thus far payed for. I gave Zugg a very nice late Christmas present one year, sometime I really should meet him.
5. Hours and hours of beta testing, you might be surprised just how long it takes to track some bugs down to specific enough circumstances so that a programmer can fix them.
6. My name is even in the credits for zMud.

I am most definitely not upset. The policy and agreement was for free upgrades and you said it yourself, this is a rewrite. The policy never guaranteed that there would be upgrades in the future. There was even a very solid likelyhood that Zugg wouldn't have made it beyond the first 2 years, but here Zuggsoft is. I like the new policy, I like even that it may cause some to refuse to buy. As I see it, Zugg never broke his promise to me or anyone else that purchased zMud. His integrity remain perfect, his and Chiara's support of products remain unequalled, and my satisfaction remains well over 100% for every single penny I have payed to them.
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Lasivian
Wanderer


Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 76
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:00 am   
 
Rainchild, i'm glad you're rich enough that you don't have to control your spending habits and you can waste money on things like that.

Not all of us are nearly so lucky, hence I mud rather than play WoW.
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edb6377
Magician


Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 482

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:00 am   
 
Code:

We regret disapointing some of our longtime users, but lets be honest here. We can't stay afloat that long. End of discussion


That response pisses me off more than anything i have ever read. I dont agree with zugg's response but its under the right context. I have the right to disagree just as he has the right to stick by it.

I simply state why i can understand and try to give you an insight to it. You respond to my post with We cant live without that money case closed. As a fellow business owner you never tell your clients about stuff like that. Why because your financial problems are your own. They do not justify a customers concern nor give them reason to accept what you offer. You will drive more people away with that than just about any statement you can imagine. You will leave them thinking "Why buy a product if they are already so broke it is becoming a burden of possibly dropped the project if they cant get the money". And in the simplest regard without any disrespect meant in any way, your money problems are your own. While i appreciate the product i have paid for and used for so long. Legal contractual obligations would dictate all upgrades are rewrites of the original software idea. However none of this is my concern. As i stated above that would have been my preference and you would have recieved your dollar value from the entire middle group who didnt help you get it started and who didnt in turn recently buy it to feel hosed. Seeing as how a majority of your sales would have been from 2000-2006 you would have generated revenue without a problem. It didnt go that way. You never saw a post from me complaining actually the post you would have seen from me was asking what to expect in pricing.

That is entirely perterbing. Granted you dont see 13298463 posts next to my name because i run a barrage of 4 different websites all offering zmud scripting and frankly until he got to cmud and i wanted to offer some input and help out did i decide to take a break myself and post a few things. 2 more directly due to the fact i am the US Community Manager in charge of converting korean to US.

Payment for me isnt a problem and personally id buy it anyway but i did offer some perspective as to why your long time customers might feel slighted. I mean given the attitude just portayed in the two posts i read there that would imply if they hadnt laid down their money in the very beginning we wouldnt have zmud. I dont believe that. I think its more than a business to you or i would have never bought it in the first place. I think its a hobby of yours that you turned into a product and have a great devotion too. I think you would have written it either way. Just maybe not to the point it has become now.

While i understand that many of those attitudes were directed at the person who rather rudly expressed himself. My attempt to explain it so that maybe you two could attempt to see where he was coming from and also at the same time voice my own personal feelings on the matter. Running a business is about more than just providing product its about allowing your customers not only the opportunity to offer feedback(which i think you are wonderful at) but to also make them understand you truly care and that your motives in doing something are not MERELY for the money but for the better of the whole) Remember they paid you (WHEN YOU HAD NO MARKET) and your statements in regards to your products are untrue. I will tell you how i know.

IN the beginning microsoft made a promise their software and all subsequent upgrades would be able to be used on 2 CPUS. They didnt specify anything more than that, This started with their windows 2000 software. On the product keys they labeled it as 1 or 2 CPU. They were taken to court for the matter due to a microsoft representative who flagged a company for installing on multiple machines and it was found that DUAL CPU machines in which the label was intended for made it a viable reason However they lost the case because 1 laptop and 1 desktop are (2 CPUS). Now if you look at your WINXP licenses they had to carry over that promise through the upgrade cycle (I think we can all agree that windows xp isnt an upgrade of windows 2000 (win2003 is) but since it was built off the initial premise it had to be carried over. You no longer find it on product keys of 2003 and you shouldnt find it on VISTA either because the software cycle was notified and ended with XP series.

Quote:

I like even that it may cause some to refuse to buy.


Yet another sickening quote. Granted no one could hold the "CREATOR" responsible for it.

Quote:

Seriously guys, give Zugg a break. If he doesn't charge for upgrades, then he will go out of business. No business means no zMUD, no CMUD, nothing. It means we'll all be swapping to tintin++ or mushclient or something. End of story.


last i checked i wasnt giving him hard time. I explained how i thought the guy felt and offered my opinion on it. Frankly the whole "IF WE DONT CHARGE WE GO OUT OF BUSINESS" excuse is what annoys me the most. I agree that might be true and i agree i dont want that to happen. HOWEVER! If i call all my SERVICE AGREEMENT CUSTOMERS right now and tell them they need to pay me for next year now or i might not be here to complete their agreement later this year, now how many customers do you think i will have tomorrow. A businesses monetary struggles are determined by the business model the owners ran with. As he said himself in retrospect the full lifetime upgrades shouldnt have ever been said. But it was and most likely was due to the fact it was a neccessary selling point to get his product off the ground. I remember sitting in my parent basement and that point alone was why i got my parents to pay for it. 10 years later i have my own business and plenty of money and have paid for multiple licenses for my children

. This isnt coming from a "1 license short term user either". This is coming from a happily satisfied zuggsoft customer since its discovery by me in its early years. I have donated, i have purchased i have referred my tail off. SO for me to feel in any way slighted should leave you wondering why. No Matter how annoying id rather go through all the licensing issues to ensure he made his money then. Im sure im not the only one aware of the zmud 7 series cracks that made it to the board. I have actually encouraged the ones i knew using the cracked version to register through the use of broken scripts and the reasoning they dont work because you arent registered. They registered i resent the script and it works so they are happy. Why simply put because i believe zugg deserves to get paid for working so hard on a product. As a business owner i would hope my customers do the same for me. You will also find pursuant to my posts if you log on to materiamagica it is now fully MXP Capable. This took a major driving push from the players including myself to make it happen. It will no doubt offer more reasons for the players to purchase the product.

While i have no desire to screw you over in any way shape or form as i have already mentioned I was disappointed nothing more nothing less. Your responses leave me to say the following and be done with it.

So i will say my peace now.
I hope the info i sent you helps with your production of CMUD. I truly believe you have a love for your product and Up until i read the posts that followed mine, I considered myself a faithful ZUGGSOFT member and always have been, however you just completely turned me off from any further purchases. It has actually sickened me to the point i will probably unlicense the whole works and return the keys i already have. That type of attitude is unbecoming of any business. If i did that to my customers i can honestly say I would be bankrupt within the years end. To be quite honest (from a business standpoint) this whole thread would have been best replied to via email if you had comments for anyone. I wish you the best of luck in your business endeavors and encourage you to work on your customer responses. I can honestly say without any problem i was in the category of "Vigilante" right up until about 20 minutes ago and have been for the last almost 10 years. Via word of mouth and via word of website i can bet i accounted for at least 300 other sales from the muds im on alone in one way or another. Its just really sad. Best wishes.

I will continue to help where i can and offer my experiences to help better cmud in any that i can. This has just completely turned me off from future purchases.
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Rainchild
Wizard


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 1551
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:45 am   
 
I'm sorry I'm so self centered that I'd rather see all you old guys (even though I'm one of those 'you old guys') pay for a new product which will be way better than zMUD rather than see Zugg go find a deskjob and cease working on MUD products at all.

As you stated with your Microoft example "You no longer find it on product keys of 2003 and you shouldnt find it on VISTA either because the software cycle was notified and ended with XP series." Which is what Zugg announced. zMUD 7.21 is the end of the zMUD series if you like.

Does Microsoft give free versions of Windows Vista to the people who bought DOS in the dim dark days? No. So why should Zugg give free versions of CMUD to the people who bought zMUD in the dim dark days? I mean sure, I wouldn't complain if Zugg gave me a free copy of CMUD because I supported him back in the old days, but I don't feel I deserve it, and I certainly don't believe it is my right to demand one.

The bottom line is - you paid for zMUD. You got a long long ride from zMUD 1.0 (or wherever you hopped on the wagon) through to zMUD 7.21 and now the ride has ended. You can keep using zMUD 7.21 for as long as you want, there's nothing to stop you from that. Just the same way that some people are still running Windows NT4, or Windows ME, or even Windows 3.11. They _could_ buy Windows XP if they wanted it and it's their decision not to if they don't.

So keep using zMUD, nobody's forcing you to upgrade. You can take that plunge at any point you want to, or keep running zMUD forever, it's your choice.

To put it back in a gaming perspective... when Sony released Everquest 2, they didn't even offer a discount to Everquest 1 players to 'upgrade to the new version'. It was a new product (even though it shared a lot of similarities), you had to buy the full priced retail box. The same can be said for just about every other product on the market. Quake 1, 2, 3, 4. No upgrade path. Tomb Raider 1, 2, 3, 4, ... how many are there? Regardless, no upgrade path. Same goes for all sorts of things ... can't upgrade your CRT to a LCD for free. Can't upgrade your car for free. Can't upgrade your xbox for free. Can't upgrade your ipod for free. Can't upgrade your jeans for free. Can't upgrade your RAM, HDD, CPU, GPU, etc for free.

It's no different here, CMUD is a new product (even though it will have similarities with zMUD), and so it's time to buy a new product. And some people are lucky that they are getting free or half price upgrades, because really Zugg doesn't have any requirement to offer them besides his generosity and onging 'fair go' nature despite everything people have been saying about him in this thread.
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Zugg
MASTER


Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23377
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:50 am   
 
Geez edb6377, I'm completely disappointed in your response. But you do what you want.

The reason Chiara made her post is because we are OPEN and HONEST about what is going on. We are not Microsoft, and we are not some big company with a bunch of lawyers writing customer service agreements or contracts. We are two people...a small family business dedicated to improving MUDs for everyone and to make them as fun to play as other high-profile games. Many of our customers have paid for zMUD BECAUSE we have always been as honest as possible. We don't hide behind some business front. Yes it's a business, but there are many people we have interacted with in these forums that we consider close friends.

I'm sorry that our honesty turned you off. Hopefully when CMUD is released and you have cooled off a bit, you'll come back in the future.

And yes, most "businesses" would have deleted this thread the instant it was posted. The fact we have kept it around and have responded to it with honestly is just the way we prefer to work. Perhaps in this case this is a lesson that maybe I should have deleted the post if it causes someone like you who has provided very useful feedback in the past to get upset and leave. I'm sorry to see you go. But I stand by the statements that myself and Chiara have made in this forum.
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edb6377
Magician


Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 482

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:53 am   
 
Quote:

I'm sorry I'm so self centered that I'd rather see all you old guys (even though I'm one of those 'you old guys') pay for a new product which will be way better than zMUD rather than see Zugg go find a deskjob and cease working on MUD products at all.


Do you not read well or what? I dont remember saying anything about you asking people to pay and i certainly remember saying myself he deserved the money. Nor did i say his upgrade policy was the cause of my change of heart. I didnt complain about any of it. I offered a reason HE may have felt slighted. I In addition offered my personal reasons why i would have thought it this way.

EQ never promised upgrades either. Period. Microsoft did and still does. YOu realize they have to support their products until x lifecycle is up. The reason you dont find it anymore is because they were required my court mandate to supply it for both versions since it was acknowledge to exist in WINXP. That doesnt change much.

All your other examples follow the same lines. NONE Of them ever offered upgradability. My brakes have a lifetime guarantee on that product. If it fails i get a new set even if they have come out with 15 advancements of those brakes in that time. DO i personally care no. WOuld i have paid without question yes.

MY SOLE reason for not doing so was stated very clearely and had nothing to do with your post or reply at all. It has to do with the attitude displayed for offering an opinion and explination as to WHY HE may feel that way and what i would have liked to have seen. Please search the forums. You will find no dirogotory posts of any kind by me in regards to this only a request for what i would be paying for CMUD pro

[zugg] Openness and honesty isnt the problem. Tell me that explaining how this guy might be feeling and explaining my personal preference doesnt even denote a dignified reply other than sorry we disappointed you but BASICALLY (Your opinion or effort to help us understand how he is feeling so we may reply to him in terms he would understand) is completely unappreciated so sorry too bad we cant survive if we were to even consider your opinion

[quote]
We are two people...a small family business dedicated to improving MUDs for everyone and to make them as fun to play as other high-profile games
[quote]

Above is appropriate response

Quote:

We regret disapointing some of our longtime users, but lets be honest here. We can't stay afloat that long. End of discussion.


This is not. The first part is great
the We can't stay afloat that long <-- Problem here is that the minimal percentage of people that got you off the ground dont comprise nearly as much as the people who have purchased it since then. Mathmatically speaking you would have made more doing it the reverse way. SO her response is like saying the burden should be placed on you because in her opinion the numbers would submit that you couldnt have survived the 2 years if the newer customers had paid.
(HONESTY isnt really either although its a bit disconcerting) <-- once again my advice nothing more.

{END OF DISCUSSION}<-- MAJOR PROBLEM

Meaning we are done listening to you now because it doesnt fix the {honesty} problem with our finances.

All i offered was some explination as was disclaimered by my post as nothing more than explination. Then also disclaimered in my post was the section of here is how i wished it had gone and why

I think it should have been reversed personally. The people who got you off the ground should recieve the benefit or there would be no product(i dont believe that but you would have us believe if you dont make money you wont do it thus zmud would have never happened) As a business owner i understand this. Money keeps you in business although i never would have made a lifetime upgrade promise of any kind. I was happy to see you fixed that with CMUD. Legally i think people would have a case. I think it would be stupid over 29 bucks and for those older users 14.50 i guess.

People just cant seem to get outside the box on this one. My posts arent about money or paying or you not earning what you get. I have no problem with any of that. Its directly related to a response. Deleting the post wouldnt have fixed the problem as the post that did it for me was h ers not his. Her response was directed at me. But i wasnt the one complaining. Her response was uncaring period and completely misdirected. there in lies my problem.


Last edited by edb6377 on Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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