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Zugg Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:12 pm
zApp Schedule
Tarn
GURU


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 867
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:16 am   
 
Chiara wrote:
I have confined him to

The Comfy Chair.


And are no doubt requiring him to subsist on only a cup of tea at 11, instead of his favored diet soda. Diabolical.

To arms, users, to arms! We must rescue Zugg!

-Tarn
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theNerd
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 1:56 pm   
 
Chiara wrote:
He now feels worse than ever and I have confined him to The Comfy Chair.

Yes, I am heartless and cruel.

No surprise here. He's been going at full-steam for too long now and that's just what he needs (and you are doing exactly what my wife would do to me Razz )
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theNerd
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 3:39 pm   
 
Chiaria,

I'm getting a little worried. How is Zugg doing?

-Steven
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Chiara
Site Admin


Joined: 29 Sep 2000
Posts: 387
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2005 6:20 pm   
 
He's getting better, but it's taking a while. I've talked to some other people who have had the same thing and it lingers and lingers....
sigh.
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Zugg
MASTER


Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 5:55 pm   
 
I'm back! Well, at least a little. I'm feeling *much* better today. We have some guests for the weekend so I doubt I'll get much work done, but at least I don't think I'm contagious anymore.

I should be back to work on zApp on Monday. Thanks for all of your well-wishes. This was a nasty case of flu...haven't felt that bad in years.
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Rorso
Wizard


Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 8:06 pm   
 
It's nice to see you're back :-). The forum has been empty without you.

Somewhat OT: Today I have been doing some programming and I now begin to understand how skilled Zugg really is. Let me say that C++ .NET is a nightmare. Actually OOP might be a nightmare too even if I like it. Sometimes I dislike that it forces me to sit down and write a design before I code. If you don't design when using OOP the code will explode with flaws, bugs, and a total mess it seems. When I did structured programming I could do all these amazing things without designing at all. With OOP only easier programs seem to be possible to construct without design *empties the trashcan*. Is there any blog entry about 'bad programming days' and how to get more skilled? Smile
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theNerd
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 10:14 pm   
 
Good to see you back, Zugg!

OOP in VB is super easy but OOP in C++ can be a nightmare. I wonder what Delphi's like for OOP?
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Zugg
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:39 pm   
 
OOP is a completely different mind-set. I learned traditional structured programming about 25 years ago. I then self-learned OOP about 16 years ago using Turbo Pascal (the precursor to Delphi). I found that learning OOP required an "Ah-Ha" phase where suddenly it all makes sense. Once you have this "Ah-Ha" revelation, then there is no going back to traditional programming.

I have found that it's just as easy for me to program without a design using OOP as it was with structured programming, if not easier. But that's because I think about OOP very differently than I think about traditional programming. With OOP you can do even more amazing things than you have probably even thought about yet.

But it's like different speaking languages. If you are American and try to learn German, for example, you either still "think" in English and translate, resulting in bad translations and bad German. Or, you imerse yourself in German culture and starting Thinking in German...then you can communicate much better.

Until you start "Thinking" in OOP terms, it will be a struggle. Unfortunately, since I learned OOP so long ago, I don't have any suggestions on what to read. I learned it by "doing" and just coming up with projects that were suited for OOP. Hopefully other people can most some more recent reading that you can do to make this transition easier.

I find OOP in Delphi to be the easiest. It has the power of full OOP (the only thing missing is multiple-inheritence, which is a pretty advanced concept, and there are tricks to get around it). But without a lot of the syntax headache and complexities (needless complexity in my opinion) of C++. Back when I dabbled with it, VB was missing some of the more advanced OOP concepts, which made it easy, but hurt in learning some of the ultimate potential of OOP. But maybe it's improved since then.

In fact, if I was teaching computer science, I'd probably teach using Delphi just to get the concepts across, then focus on "learning" C++ *after* students understood the fundamental concepts.

Anyway, hang in there Rorso. OOP is the biggest advance in computer science in decades and I can tell you from personal experience that it makes coding (even without a design) easier, with fewer bugs and easier to maintain. It's when you try to force traditional techniques into an OOP system that you end up with a mess.
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Zugg
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 10:00 pm   
 
I added the zConnection.ExportXML function today. It's pretty powerful. I'll be adding the corresponding ImportXML routine tomorrow. This should then allow me to import the knowledge base into a local SQLite database for the local documentation viewer program that I'm writing using zApp.

Once the documentation viewer program is finished, I'll be ready for the public release. Getting closer and closer!
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kawawong
Beginner


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 1:02 am   
 
Great Great Great. I am waiting to try it. Cool
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theNerd
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:07 am   
 
Razz
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Zugg
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:18 am   
 
New FAQ page for zApp is now up. Also, we just sent out the press release for zApp to over 1,000 various editors of paper and electronic journals. So, we should start to see some more interest in zApp. For your own interest, here is the press release we sent out:
Quote:
Create Software That Even Users Can Customize

(May, 2005) Zugg Software has released zApp 2.0, a full-featured application development system for the Windows operating system. zApp gives software developers the ability to create products that can be easily modified by end users. Through the use of popular scripting languages like Perl, Javascript, VBScript, Python, and any other scripting language compatible with the Windows Scripting Host, end-users can create "plug-ins" that add features to your product. Perhaps best of all, because zApp is fully optimized to support Windows, multiple scripting languages can be used within one application, offering the ultimate in program flexibility. With its standard XML syntax, creating a desktop application using zApp is as easy as creating a web page.

When applications are created with zApp they can be completely customized by end-users with the User edition of zApp. This includes all fascets of your product from menus and toolbars to the "look and feel" of your product. zApp has an intuitive user interface and is extremely easy-to-use. Code can even be modified with a standard text editor if desired. End-users with no need or interest in customizing your application can easily access your program using a free runtime version of zApp.

zApp offers a rich set of advanced visual components that automatically work well together. These components also support Themes and Skins. Existing ActiveX and COM components can also be used within zApp. The product alsofeatures full database support based on JDBC which means that Microsoft ADO is not required. zApp applications support popular databases like Oracle, MySQL, DB2, ADO, ODBC, MSSQL, Sybase, Firebird, and more. zApp is even compatible with the .NET components in Windows and uses terminology similar to .NET development environments. That makes it easy for developers who are familiar with .NET to quickly create applications with zApp.

A Developer's version of zApp is available which allows you to encrypt your zApp program, while still allowing end-users to customize it. And, when you purchase zApp you get 2 years of free upgrades! For a truly creative programming experience, take a look at zApp.

System Requirements
zApp 2.0 requires Windows 98, ME, 2000, or XP. It also requires 256MB RAM and 10MB of hard disk space.

Price and Availability
zApp costs $30.00 USD and can be purchased securely online at http://www.zuggsoft.com. You can download a fully functional 30-day trial version from the Web site.
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Krule
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Joined: 12 Nov 2000
Posts: 268
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 10:12 pm   
 
Hmm...

HHHhmmmm....

The boss that sits in the office across from the hall where I work, (Pratt And Whitney Canada) has been talking up a store lately about creating small applications using a program known as 'PowerBuilder' vs using Java.

He says he wants 'end users' to be able to make changes to routines and add small 'tasks' without the hasle of getting them approved by the large beauracracy that is PWC. I'm not sure what Powerhouse is, but perhaps if it is a similar system I can throw some light on zApp to him.... He works in the Publications department at PWC, they do a lot of work with SGML and other things that are beyond my knowledge (I work in a different section but happen to have my desk there)

I'll try to listen in more next week to see what his reqs are (he talks very loud and never closes his door). If nothing else, I may create some buzz in the office about it, since I'll be using mine to automate some boring daily tasks I have, as well as create a nice ODBC database viewer (I hate access and refuse to use it, even though it's the company standard)
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Zugg
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 5:21 pm   
 
Is it "Powerhouse" or "Powerbuilder"? You used both names. I know about something called "Powerbuilder"...it's a very old and very large and expensive application development environment. We used it use it back at the lab for our Enterprise applications (payroll, etc). Unless it has changed a lot, it is nothing like the small, inexpensive and light zApp system.

Never heard of Powerhouse, so maybe that's the correct name. Once again it's too generic of a name to Google search.

When talking to your boss, you might focus on a couple of things:
  • Uses the same programming skills as web programming. So employees already used to writing web pages and web scripts, in either Javascript or ASP (VBScript) will be able to use zApp easily.
  • Low cost. I'd be amazed if he found anything actually capable of building *real* applications for less money than zApp.
  • Then try to find out more specifically what kind of application he is trying to build. If it's a database app, show him the extensive database support in zApp and the powerful database controls (show him the DBVIEW demo which can view almost any database natively). If he is interested in applications with some sort of text or memo control, ask about as-you-type spellchecking and show him the EDITOR demo.

You might also look into deployment issues. See if the tool he is looking at requires a large runtime system. Explain how zApp can be linked into it's own EXE file that can be distributed for free. Ask about code protection and explain how users can add tasks, but how the main code can be encrypted and protected.

If he already knows SGML, then he might really like the XML format of the zApp programs.

And if it sounds like he has already found something else that is better than zApp, email me a link so I can take a look at it.
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Darker
GURU


Joined: 24 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 5:27 pm   
 
About PowerBuilder... it's been around for a while, but it gets new versions regularly. To call it "very old" implies it's not kept current. It is. It's even capable of using .NET components (IIRC) at latest version.
It's primarily for client/server business processes - we use it a lot where I work.
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Darker
New and Improved, for your Safety.
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Zugg
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 6:04 pm   
 
True. But the fact that it is huge, slow, and expensive still stand Wink And yes, it's focus is definitely large client/server enterprise applications. Didn't mean to imply it was out-of-date...just that it had been around for a while, and stuff that has been around for a long time tends to get bloated. It was definitely very useful at the lab replacing our legacy IBM terminal apps with new GUI apps. But I also remember talking to some programmers who hated it and wanted to develop web-based applications instead. But the security of web-based apps just wasn't good enough for critical apps like payroll and stuff like that, so we stuck with Powerbuilder.

Anyway, definitely not what zApp is meant for. So yeah, if someone is looking to build big client/server enterprise apps, don't use zApp.

Oh, and being able to use .NET components isn't a big deal. .NET components are compatible with COM objects, so even zApp can use .NET components (although I need to actually play with this to see how easy it is).
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Kronus
Wanderer


Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 76
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 7:46 pm   
 
Back OT for a second. Whats the updated schedule for release?

Question
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Krule
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Joined: 12 Nov 2000
Posts: 268
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 9:42 pm   
 
Sorry about that, it's PowerBuilder...not sure why I said powerhouse
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Zugg
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 12:23 am   
 
Brief OT: Krule, if he needs the client/server capabilities of PowerBuilder, then zApp won't be a good choice. If he's looking to just create some simple applications that people can customize, then PowerBuilder is completely over kill. To customize a powerbuilder application, the end user basically needs the powerbuilder development tools, and a *lot* of training. You should definitely make sure he's not trying to "use a bulldozer to plant a flower". In other words, make sure it's not complete over-kill for what he needs. If your company already owns Powerbuilder, than I can understand people wanting to try and justify that big cost.

OK, back on topic. Here is where I am with zApp now:

I've got the basic Documentation Viewer program working. It can download updates from the knowledge base on www.zuggsoft.com and put them into a SQLite database (using ImportXML). All of this is done with background threads, and works great. The documentation tree is then shown in a Tree.Db control on the left, with the HTML body of the document displayed in a Memo control on the right.

The problem that I've run into is that the HTML support of the Memo control is pretty poor. It doesn't seem to handle DL lists at all, which is used a lot in the documentation. And it doesn't seem to handle line breaks properly. I also need to write some code to handle hyperlinks within the documents.

I'm hoping that another day devoted to the HTML import code for the Memo control will fix all of this. It's a section of code I've been needing to look at anyway.

After the Memo control HTML stuff is fixed, then I just have a couple of minor things to do (about a day's worth) before the release. I have all weekend available to keep working on this, so I'm hoping to have it released by Monday.

Hey, at least the ETA is *less* than a week now!
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theNerd
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 1:06 am   
 
Zugg, although you are the author of zApp I have to disagree with you about zApp's role in a Client\Server setting. Using ADO zApp can access SQL Server and work perfectly in that scenario. I see no reason why not. If ASP and DHTML can handle a client\server setting so can zApp. I don't think you should under market it.
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theNerd
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 1:10 am   
 
I wanted to add that the one main thing that might be missing (or I overlooked it in the documentation) is the lack of stored procedure support (for both input\output parameters and recordset returns.) We use SPROCS extensively at work.

Oh, and every client\server architecture requires a proper sprite engine which zApp doesn't have yet. Razz J/K
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Zugg
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 2:10 am   
 
Stored procedures are database dependant, so there is no way to add support in an independant way to the zApp controls. You'd need to specify them using SQL syntax just the way you normally do with your database. Unless I'm missing something, you don't need anything special in zApp to do this.
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Zugg
MASTER


Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 2:12 am   
 
Oh, and regarding client/server applications...sure, zApp can do *simple* client/server apps (like web-based apps). But most of the time when you get into Enterprise applications you get into multi-tier stuff with MIDAS and stuff like that. zApp handles client/server in the "old, traditional" style, rather than in the multi-tier method of modern systems. So I think we are just using "client/server" in a different way. Powerbuilder has a lot more power to seperate the GUI from the backend and from your business rules.
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Krule
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Joined: 12 Nov 2000
Posts: 268
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 3:31 am   
 
I'd start a new thread, but I always feel bad about that, sorry about the OTs...

I'll make sure to talk to him and see what he needs.

In unrelated news, I can't seem to get the DBView or Life demos to work. DBView says it has no drivers, Life just..does..nothing...

I tried uninstalling/reinstalling with the latest cvs..this is my first time trying either of those two..any ideas? (Should I start a new thread )
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Zugg
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Joined: 25 Sep 2000
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Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 6:35 am   
 
Start a new thread for each of these. The DBView will need the driver for the database you are using (sqlite.dll for SQLite, mysql.dll for Mysql, etc). But Life should work fine in the current build, so post a topic and we will try to figure out the problem.
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