Zugg Software :: View topic

Magician Joined: 13 Oct 2000 Posts: 463

Kinda scary how 1 million lines of code fits into a 4MB download. :-) Even counting stuff that doesn't get incorporated, it's impressive.

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:58 pm

Well, I'm making progress on this. I've got the DevExpress stuff loaded again, along with just the core piece of the ThemeEngine. I've got the RichView editor dialogs converted to the DevExpress controls and have got the RichView component to load into Delphi. Also done with the SpellChecker dialogs.

So, the remaining dialogs are the new FileOpen and FileSave dialogs that I wrote last week. I need to replace the default dialogs in RichView with these, and then see if I can load zApp into Delphi.

Hopefully I'll have zApp loaded into Delphi later tonight.

I spent several hours today tracking down a Windows repaint problem with the DevExpress cxButton control. Finally found the problem (it was a problem in the DevExpress source code actually), but it took hours to figure out why calling Repaint wasn't cause the button to actually re-paint itself. I hate bugs like that.

Anyway, hopefully by tomorrow I'll have zApp back where it was before this mess, but without the buggy ThemeEngine controls. I have to go out of town this Friday for the whole weekend, so I'm going to try and get at least a Beta release of this new version so that people can play with it while I'm gone.

Adept Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 277

Looking forward to it.

I was talking to a coworker today about zApp and demonstrated it to him. He made a comment on the runtime being required and then immediately said he would rather program in JAVA. I thought that was kind of funny. I said that that was like a 20MB download and Windows XP did not automatically include it. I think some developers get this idea in their head that because JAVA is a "write once run everywhere" language that it will automatically work on every machine.

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:14 am

Yep, that's exactly the kind of mentality that I'm up against. It's amazing how brain-washed people can become with marketing. It's going to be even worse going against the .NET marketing from Microsoft.

I know this will upset some people, but I think Java has been one of the biggest mistakes made. It never lived up to it's promises, and just diverted the time and money of a bunch of smart people. I remember when it first came out and became "the next big thing" that the shelves of the bookstores were lined with Java programming books. Everyone was looking to make a quick buck on it.

And while there have been some applications written in Java that work ok, it never delivered the performance nor the platform independance that was promised. To actually run a Java app on PC, Mac, and Unix you end up having to navigate a virtual mine-field of what works and what doesn't, and end up with the least-common denomiator of basic functionality.

Some Java apps running in Web Browsers work for some applications where performance isn't needed. There are lots and lots of worthless little "Java applets" around the net. As far as applications running native on a system without a browser, my best example was something called "JPluck" for my PDA. It is used to suck down web pages to store them on the PDA for offline viewing. The application is huge (takes up about 60MB, and then expands to use all available memory while its running), and the user interface is very clunky. Menus don't work in a smooth manner or in the way we are used to on Windows and submenus often lose their focus. And it's slow.

But these days, Java is almost like a checkbox on some job applications...Java, JMEE, .NET, etc. It's becoming a list of buzzwords that manager-types look for in people and products. Throw in enough "hot" buzzwords and you can still get venture capital, or convince management to fund a particular project.

Delphi had this problem, and I think it eventually killed the Win32 Delphi that we all came to know and love. When you'd propose to management to code a new project in Delphi, they'd turn it down because obviously any serious software needed to be developed using Visual Studio and C++. As a consultant, Delphi programmers always had the advantage over Visual Basic and Visual Studio because you could produce the same product quicker, and better (and usually cheaper) with Delphi. But if you weren't in a consulting position and had to get some higher management approval, Delphi was a much tougher sell.

But, that's what people like me are for...to fill these niches for the smart people who can see the advantages in non-mainstream products and tools. It's always about picking the right tool for the job. If I was writing a device driver, I wouldn't use zApp, nor would I use Delphi. If I was writing a high-performance database server, I wouldn't use zApp. But if I was writing a desktop application where user interface and user functionality and customization were most important, than zApp is a better choice than anything else.

To even compare zApp with Java is pretty sad on your co-workers part, since they do two completely different tasks. You aren't going to write a desktop app with a good user interface using Java, and end-users certainly aren't going to be able to customize a Java app. Then again, if you needed something cross-platform, then you certainly wouldn't use zApp.

What's the saying..."If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail." That's the problem with people who think that every program should be written in Java, or .NET, or any other tool for that matter.

Anyway, thanks for at least bringing zApp to his attention. As I get more demos of real programs written, perhaps more people will understand where zApp is a good choice for some applications.

Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:15 am

And yes, I *did* get zApp to compile today. Cross your fingers for a weekly CVS build tomorrow.

Adept Joined: 12 Nov 2000 Posts: 268 Location: Canada

I'ma hafta go against you on your views of Java Zugg. I agree as far as a DESKTOP Development language, Java is not the strongest, nor can it be expected to be, yet. HOWEVER in the Enterprise world (which is not what you are competing against, I don't think), Java is becoming a very popular choice. J2EE is developing very quickly and has gained alot of support from large companies.

I don't want to get into the detials, or start a huge feud, since you already mentioned that the comparison was pretty awful, I do however take partial offence when you say that Java is the biggest mistake ever...

Edit: Skinnable Java Apps = Synth L&F For Java 1.5

Adept Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 277

Krule,

The JAVA applications we use at work are very slow and combersome even on the fastest machines. Also, JAVA requires a very large run-time. If a huge run-time was not an issue I would go .NET (which many of my departments are moving to.)

Of course, we are all entitled to our opinions so no offense it meant. We have both fields of thinking at work since we have so many departments. Some swear by JAVA and others by C, and others by .NET and another individual by zApp Laughing

I guess we just have to pick the right tool for the right job.

-Steven

Adept Joined: 12 Nov 2000 Posts: 268 Location: Canada

Don't get me wrong, I program in C,C#,Java, even VB when it's appropriate. I'm not saying that it's the best, but to say that it has been a huge mistake. I know I wouldn't want to be quoted saying that.

I'm also curious as to what kinds of applications you are referring to? Web apps? You would be surprised who is java enterprise software, and how fast it works...

Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:38 am

Well, maybe the "biggest mistake" was an overstatement. Perhaps saying "waste of time" is more appropriate. I don't know about you, but I was developing quality Enterprise applications way before Java ever appeared. It's true that it helps some with cross platform issues, but I stand by my statement that to really do cross-platform in Java is almost as hard as it was before Java, unless you are writing a very simple application.

And if you do not require the cross-platform nature of Java, then you are probably better off building Enterprise apps with a more traditional development solution.

Just because something is "popular and gaining support" doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, or that it isn't hype. People jump on all sorts of band-wagons, which is what my comment was all about. People are doing the same thing with .NET. There are lots of examples of applications using J2EE that don't need it or could do it with more traditional methods, but are using J2EE because it's one of the latest buzzwords.

Yes, I'm making a huge over-generalization here. I'm not saying that these things don't have their place. There are certainly applications that are perfect for Java or .NET. What I'm saying is that they were tremendously over-hyped and over-used, and often misused for the wrong reasons for the wrong applications. I've met several managers that had no clue what these technologies were actually about, but were insistent that they had to be used for a particular application. That's the problem I'm talking about.

Adept Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 277

The speed of the app could also have to do with the programmers themselves, so, perhaps others could get better performance.

I programmed in JAVA a bit a couple years ago. It seemed really nice but almost seemed like it was not fully "ironed out". I think it was with the Swing engine that I worked with. I am sure it has improved quite a bit since, though.

As far as zApp goes, I think once people see some commercial software developed in it they will begin to adopt it more. I know I have at least 3 apps I want to develop in zApp that fit its purpose.

I am sure Zugg is reading these posts thinking of how bad of a thread drift these posts have become Very Happy

Wizard Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 1551 Location: Australia

Magician Joined: 09 Oct 2003 Posts: 459 Location: USA

.Net is perfect for small 'quick and dirty' applications in an office environment... which is mainly where Microsoft is pushing things. Microsoft does make a fair amount of money off the average user, but they also make bu-cu bucks off of corporations... a corporate developer who is used to C++ can write simple apps in C# without having to worry about garbage collection or any of those pesky things that should be taken care of anyways.

I'm not suggesting we re-write the new DOOM for .NET, but if looking at .NET in the way I just portrayed, it makes perfect sense.

Millions of VB applications are written every year to do simple, stupid, little chores by company or division programmers that don't necessarily deserve a corporate-wide initiative. If microsoft found a way to make those stupidly simple apps faster... good for them.

Corporate initiative type applications will most likely still be written in more hard core languages, but corporate dev teams usually have much more funding and developers to throw at an application.

Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:08 am

I'm a bit late, but I wanted to chip in on the java discussion. Just because one hasnt seen any good/portable java apps, doesnt mean there arent any out there. And even if one isnt completely 'write once, run anywhere' I would suspect theres a lot less stuff to recode on porting, than anything else out there. For some large and usable examples, you could do worse than look at the DB2 and Oracle GUI clients, those are both java based, and not small apps. The DB2 one is a little clunky and a slight memory hog, but still works. The Oracle client looks and feels a lot more polished, and doesnt memory hog nearly so much.

I will agree though, that its very hard to see the forest for the trees here, so many people jumping into java programming without much of a clue, and producing heaps of mini apps, that its difficult to find anything good and useful. Its also easy to programm badly in Java.

Having said that, I don't use it, much too verbose for me.

Lady C.

Magician Joined: 13 Oct 2000 Posts: 463

The prolem is that with other systems (like, say, Win32 to X) all the changes are documented and well known. You know when you're calling a Win32 function, and you can look in the documentation or the source code for the equivalent function or routine needed in the other OS. But with Java, it's SUPPOSED to be the same, but isn't. All the difference from platform to platform, and runtime to runtime, are UNDOCUMENTED except in errata and forums. These are not supposed to be different, every point of difference is a bug, and there's a LOT of them.

I would far rather work on documented differences for 20% of my code, rather than try to find the undocumented 2% of my code which is breaking on THIS OS under THESE situations.