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Rorso
Wizard
Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368
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 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:33 am
zeus.exe file size
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Why is the file size of zeus.exe so large?
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:46 am
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Not sure what you mean. It's smaller than zMUD. Keep in mind several things:
1) This is still ALPHA which means I haven't done ANY optimization
2) The core Zeus EXE file contains ALL of the code for ALL of the components. That means it contains the entire core part of Delphi, the 3rd party components, like the full Rich text editor, spellchecking, the fancy Grid component, and now all of the ADO components.
The way Zeus applications are designed is that Zeus itself might be large, but there only needs to be one copy in memory to run multiple Zeus applications (at least eventually).
In a way, Zeus is really an entire operating system. Or at least equivelant to the runtime library of a major programming language. And since Zeus has much more feature-rich components, it used less of the built-in components and more of it's custom code. That allows the components to have more features than their Windows-equivalent controls, and also lets Zeus apply custom theme skins to them.
Oh yeah, another thing that makes it big: Probably 2-3MB is just from the pre-defined images that are compiled into Zeus. Hundreds of predefined images are available and they are efficiently managed so that there is only a single copy of the bitmap stored in memory no matter how many places you use it.
Oh yeah, and it also has 3 predefined themes (like Aqua) compiled into it.
With all of that, I'm amazed that it's as small as it is. |
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Rorso
Wizard
Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:02 am
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| Zugg wrote: |
Not sure what you mean. It's smaller than zMUD. Keep in mind several things:
1) This is still ALPHA which means I haven't done ANY optimization
2) The core Zeus EXE file contains ALL of the code for ALL of the components. That means it contains the entire core part of Delphi, the 3rd party components, like the full Rich text editor, spellchecking, the fancy Grid component, and now all of the ADO components.
The way Zeus applications are designed is that Zeus itself might be large, but there only needs to be one copy in memory to run multiple Zeus applications (at least eventually).
In a way, Zeus is really an entire operating system. Or at least equivelant to the runtime library of a major programming language. And since Zeus has much more feature-rich components, it used less of the built-in components and more of it's custom code. That allows the components to have more features than their Windows-equivalent controls, and also lets Zeus apply custom theme skins to them.
Oh yeah, another thing that makes it big: Probably 2-3MB is just from the pre-defined images that are compiled into Zeus. Hundreds of predefined images are available and they are efficiently managed so that there is only a single copy of the bitmap stored in memory no matter how many places you use it.
Oh yeah, and it also has 3 predefined themes (like Aqua) compiled into it.
With all of that, I'm amazed that it's as small as it is. |
I see. Hashing bitmaps like that is almost required  . That is how I handle them in my game.
Have you decided yet if it will be possible for other people to use Zeus to make applications? And if so will people have to buy it to run 3rd party applications? |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:30 am
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Yes, other people will *definitely* be able to use Zeus to write other applications. But anyone who wants to run those applications will need to buy Zeus. Keep in mind that with the eMobius email client, the eMobius part is just another ZML file that is loaded and run by Zeus. The ZML files are text files that the user can edit with any editor. So, there is no way to license ZML files. The only thing that can be licensed is the ZEUS.EXE file itself, and optionally any DLL file required for the application.
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Krule
Adept
Joined: 12 Nov 2000
Posts: 268
Location: Canada
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:03 am
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Why can't zml can't be licenced? Maybe not using eLiscence, but there are other methods of licencing. Plus, I'm sure eLicence could PROBABLY come up with a way to licence these files..I mean they have made technology (not elicence, by them i mean the general public) to licence mp3s and whatnot?
I think it's a discussion that should be looked at more closely......
ACTUALLY...now that I think about it, there are programs that have similar issues, one that I am thinking of is MS Access. What they did in that situation was make it so you could package your 'applications' which relied on zEUS into 1 executable file, which was just something that ran access+your database together...
A solution perhaps? |
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Rorso
Wizard
Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:38 am
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| Krule wrote: |
Why can't zml can't be licenced? Maybe not using eLiscence, but there are other methods of licencing. Plus, I'm sure eLicence could PROBABLY come up with a way to licence these files..I mean they have made technology (not elicence, by them i mean the general public) to licence mp3s and whatnot?
I think it's a discussion that should be looked at more closely......
ACTUALLY...now that I think about it, there are programs that have similar issues, one that I am thinking of is MS Access. What they did in that situation was make it so you could package your 'applications' which relied on zEUS into 1 executable file, which was just something that ran access+your database together...
A solution perhaps? |
I think the issue is that Zugg wants people to be able to change the code of the email client. So he both wants to show the code and hide it causing a contradiction. I doubt anyone would do commercial stuff using Zeus but let's say there were. People would have to buy like $80 worth of software to use it. That is first they have to buy the interpreter, and then the additional "software".
The question arises though why someone should use Zeus for their development needs and not something like Java which is free. The development issue is something I pondered on today. I would probably not use Zeus to develop Windows software. The benefit with Zeus is that it will have RAD though, but that MSVC++ already has(kind of) for .NET and both need an interpreter. With .NET the users can download the interpreter for free though.
As an email client eMobius might be nice to use. For development though I am hesitant. Not that I have developed any commercial software though  . |
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Zugg
MASTER
Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:21 pm
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Correct. The whole idea with Zeus is to let the end-user customize the application. So, the ZML file has to be editable. And as soon as you allow the ZML file to be editeable, then there is no way to copy protect it.
But Rorso, Zeus is *not* going to cost $80. I'm still trying to decide if Zeus will be available separately or not, but if Zeus is part of eMobius, then that means just buying eMobius will give you a fully functional Zeus runtime. So that's a maximum cost of $50 or so (whatever the cost of eMobius is). And it's likely that I'll make a Zeus-only product available for less than that. Certainly not $80.
Also, sure you can use Java. You can use VB. You can use Delphi. You can use .NET. There are lots and lots of options for developers. I'm well aware of that and am doing things in Zeus to make it more attractive to certain types of developers.
With Zeus applications, end users can customize the application. End users cannot do that with any of the above options. With Zeus you have a much richer set of components that are built into the system. You aren't going to see the full-powered rich-text editor with as-you-type spellchecking anywhere in .NET or VB. In Delphi it's a 3rd party component that cost me a total of $500 to license. For less than $50 you can buy Zeus and get those kind of components as part of the core system.
Keep in mind that for commercial software development, you are not writing free software you are expecting the end user to pay. In the case of Zeus, the end user is paying part to Zugg Software and part to the developer. The user doesn't care who gets the money...it's all one cost to them. In addition, the Developer is paying a single cost to purchase the Zeus system. That's the same as the developer buying a compiler, like Visual Studio or Delphi, or buying 3rd party components for a free compiler like .NET. So, developing in Zeus really isn't that different from developing in other systems.
But as you said, you havn't developed any commercial software, so it doesn't really matter. My main point is that it's not that different that current software development models. The main difference is that the end-user is paying part of the software cost to Zugg Software. So, in a way, the developer is making a bit less on their application, or it's like paying Zuggsoft a royalty. But in return, the developer is getting a very rich set of customizeable and themeable components. And they can write applications less expensively with Zeus than with things like Visual Studio or Delphi or .NET when you look at the entire package. |
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