Zugg Software :: View topic

Beginner Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 13 Location: Wyoming

I clicked on the purchase link and thats that message I got. So I didn't continue. Thanks

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:56 pm

Yep, I see it now. Seems that Internet Explorer was caching the certificate, so I didn't get the expiration message until after I restarted the web browser. Buying is still safe even with the expired certificate, but I'll try to get that fixed later today.

It's wierd though...in previous years I always got an email notification a few weeks before the certificate expired so that I could renew it. I don't know why I didn't get any email for it this year. Very strange.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:44 pm

OK, I have renewed the SSL certificate, so you shouldn't get any expiration messages anymore. Thanks for letting me know.

Beginner Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 13 Location: Wyoming

Zugg got a license.. Thanks for your help with the SSL certificate. Now trying to figure out the automapper. I have a thread out there called Zmud 7.21 Automapper or something like that. If anyone wants to pitch in? Thanks again.

Newbie Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 7

Most people here probably aren't going to like what I have to say here at all, so if you're not in the mood for it, skip it.

That said:

Zugg, whether you realize it or not, you're making your own customers your servants and your enemies. It's unprofessional and unappealing to new customers when you threaten to quit if your existing customers don't help your sales. The fact of the matter is that zMUD is competing against a very large library of free and open source software. It stands greatly to your credit as a developer that you've managed to eke out any living at all out of this field, but I'm really surprised you weren't prepared for this ten years ago.

My point isn't to be incendiary. It's that frankly, making a living on a MUD client has always been a precarious situation, and maybe it's time you started thinking in less conventional capitalistic terms. I don't doubt you have little inclination for the OSS way of things, and that's perfectly acceptable. Perhaps though, you could get by better by borrowing a little from the OSS business model. Charge for support and good packaging, rather than the software itself. I also have little doubt people will be more willing to make donations toward something they didn't already have to pay for. Keep the source to yourself if that suits you, but don't rule out a business model that's friendlier to your customers.

I suppose I should also come clean, and invalidate my own opinion before anyone else chooses to do it to me. I'm not a paying customer. I've come close a couple times, but now that I know being a paying zMUD customer will also obligate me to being an unpaid advertiser, I think I'll pass.

Best of luck to you, but I really think you may have become too fixated on a very precarious business model.

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:57 pm

I'm not even sure where to start in responding to that, so maybe I'll just ignore it as you suggested.

But frankly, *many* people are willing to pay for quality software, and they already are paying for support (have no idea how "good packaging" applies to a MUD client). They paid for zMUD once and have gotten direct developer support from me for 10 years. That's what they paid for, along with a client that is still far more advanced than *anything* available for free.

I have no idea what you mean by "will also obligate me to being an unpaid advertiser". I don't "obligate" my customers to do anything. I asked for some extra support this month, and I have mostly received it from people who are very happy that zMUD exists and want to help in anyway they can to keep zMUD alive and improving.

You talk about "business models" but you don't seem to actually have a clue what "model" will actually succeed. If anything, I have learned that the "models" that make customers happy (open source, free upgrades, etc) are poor *business* models. What I've learned is that I should have never offered free upgrades 10 years ago. There is no way I'd be in business if I just charged for "support and good packaging". You can do this for linux by catering to large businesses that have lots of money to pay for support, but you can't do it for a MUD game client.

Newbie Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 7

I suppose that's one of the inherent problems of trying to use an example to clarify a point: People fixate entirely on the example, rather than the actual point. To clarify: You're trying to make a living off a MUD client. Sure your MUD client may be much more advanced than anything available for free, but that doesn't mean the free ones are anything less than sufficient. What that ultimately amounts to is that you're making your living on very, very precarious ground, and it seems to me like you're taking it out on your user base when the ground starts to crumble. You're not literally obligating your customers to help you sell copies, but you're making a very unprofessional attempt to put guilt on people who don't. The fact of the matter is that I'm surprised you managed to do as well as you have with this market, and I think if you want to continue to do so, you're going to have to start thinking differently. My OSS example wasn't as literal as you took it to be; I only meant it to remind you that there are more ways to make money than on the software itself. Depending on the promises you've made, perhaps it's possible to make personal support an additional option for an extra fee. Perhaps you could expand your business by arranging some sort of partnership with popular games. Be creative, because I think you're going to need it.

Just please don't resort to childish threats: "...if this is the thanks I'm going to get then I'll just quit."

Adept Joined: 12 Nov 2000 Posts: 268 Location: Canada

I feel like butting in here, if I may.

I'm not economist, or business person, I'm a simple end user, who sees both points.

1) I agree with Heretic that the fact that you've made a living out of zMUD for 10 years is quite a feet, and you should be proud. I wouldn't say that having the free upgrades hurt you zugg, i'm sure it attributed to a portion of the success of zMUD. BUt now times have changed, and it is time to look at a different business model (One that does not involve free upgrades)

2) Zugg _IS_ attempting to move the focus of his business from the 'precarious' world of mudding (A world that in my eyes is dying, and I speak as a mud owner, player, game developper, and now software developer for a large firm) to the world of script based applications and (hopefully, please god hopefully) e-mail clients (And other desktop apps in the future, I believe). So let us not chide him for lack of ingenuity.

3) Why is it that OSS supporters are so bent on OSS being a business model? It is not a business model, is it? It is an anti-business model. A business model is the guy at milliondollarhomepage.com. Business models are capitalist inventions, OSS is a social invention. (Again, I'm not a scholar, this is a point of view). You can't make money in OSS other than by donations, or are you say support. But zMUD won't generate enough support to live off of. OSS works for some companies, and I'd venture to say not even that well (I know of several oss companies that rely heavily on other fields to make their money to support the oss projects)

In short, lets give Zugg a break. I don't think what he did was something he WANTED to do (that is, ask for help) but he did it to a community of users, a community that supports him. He didn't send out a msg to everyone that owned zMUD and said "Listen guys, my belts a bit tight, could you feed me a little something?". And there IS software that does that (Azureus comes to mind).

The end

Enchanter Joined: 10 Oct 2000 Posts: 698

I feel the need to butt in as well.

If I remember correctly, then this

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:12 am

I think if Zugg were to turn to survival-by-supporting-zmud, we'd lose the forums, and thus free help for every man and his dog will disappear.

Just something for the OSS crowd to consider.

Newbie Joined: 27 Oct 2005 Posts: 7

I'm done with this argument, but I felt the need to clarify one thing: mr_kent, I said I am not a paying zMUD user. I did not say that I'm a zMUD user at all. I play MUDs primarily out of a client I wrote myself as a learning experiment over the course of a week, or out of various Linux clients, depending on my OS at that particular moment. I have used zMUD briefly, but not even to the conclusion of the trial.

Which raises another point: You could probably increase profits by providing zMUD for other platforms, like Linux and Macs. But I think that point's been raised before. :P

Beginner Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 11

Let me tell you why I am here, I used zmud back in 96/97 and again every now and again. I remember back in the days when, if you really wanted to 'play' a MUD you used zMud.
Well now I'm all grown up and, although I host my own Circle MUD I rarely log on and its really for a nostalgic thing, (if i could find where fuskermud moved to i'd prolly start mudding again)
Anyhow, onto my point as to why im here, I'm now a unix sysadmin and im sure alot of mudders graduated to, I use putty as anyone would in a sysadmin role, but what I'm looking for id zMud for ssh, I want to be able to ssh into a host and use the triggers and logging features of zMud but as a sysadmin client rather than a mud client.

Anyhow, maybe this gives you an idea for a new product, it shouldnt cost you that much to implement a ssh version of zmud, use the putty source. Id buy it for $50.00. I really want triggering in a ssh client and cant find it, imagine a product which is a combination of ssh client like putty and a mud client like zMud, it would be a very powerfull admin tool and could outsell zMud. anyhow,

email me if you do because I'd buy it stright away and i'm sure, if you added additional terminal emulation choices like xterm and ibm3151 in addition to the vt100 it would be the icing on the cake for 10's of 1000's of sysadmins. imagine CSC/IBM/EDS buying site licenses, major $$$

Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:00 pm

sed, keep an eye on these forums at the beginning of the year. I've talked about a zTelnet product in the past and with the new zMUDXP code to base it on, chances are pretty good you'll see something. And since the export restrictions and licensing of SSH has improved compared to 5 years ago, the chances of seeing something with SSH is very high.

Marketing is always a problem, however. MUDs have been relatively easy (word of mouth). But every time I try to market to a new area (like zApp), I discover that it's very hard. I don't actually expect the income from a zTelnet product to be very high, and with a one-person business it's hard to provide the support needed by the big companies who want site licenses. But it's still definitely an area that I'm interested in. And as you said, it should be relatively easy, especially while I'm already rewriting stuff for zMUDXP.

Beginner Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 11

IMO you should use node locking licensing.
Your sales will drop if serials are unrestricted.
if it can be installed on more than one system it will be.

Download and install, valid for 30 days, registration is mandatory, register hostid, allow one free/automated move/register to new hostid, additional moves require authorisation/activation of another one free/auto move/register, via email with reasonable reason.

When you look at the way networks are setup now, people are blocked by firewalls most not allowing telnet at all.
I had to put in the most convoluted solution to be able to log onto my mud from work where 443 was my only option.

The number of people who would be interested would not be less, its just the number of ways to get onto a mud server has been reduced, so the number of oppertunities for someone to show someone else a MUD is also reduced.
Especially since 2000, since then, telnet is deemed (in corporates) to be insecure so its harder to get a telnet server on the network without being questioned about it.
I wouldnt be suprised if there has been a steady decline in overall zMud sales since 99/2000, taking into account donation sales.
Anyhow, I could be totally off the mark....

Beginner Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 11

Id be very interested in zTelnet
I'm sure the search engines will find it, mud clients are the only telnet interface with triggers and advanced logging, and there no ssh client I've found which do triggers or advanced logging...
I have been searching google with the terms 'ssh client trigger' and get nothing worthwhile, the search engines will find zTelnet if they can get to the description text on your site, you will get hits just from thoes terms, Google adds are quite expensive but they do work.
Site licenses shouldnt be a problem, how much support can there be, sysadmins will be using the tool. youd have to be unlucky to get any support issues, you'd more likely get have trouble providing development and customization support though.
I wouldnt worry about that till it happens, then deal with it :).

Beginner Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 11

Call it zNet***, zNetAdmin or zSSH* zTelnet*. SSH implys telnet and zTelnet implys that its only a telnet client.
*='.com domain name taken (**.org's are taken)'.

Get the domain name because my actions were, when looking for zMud 'out of the blue' went: http://zmud.com then http://zmud.org then google:'zmud homepage'. in that order.

Beginner Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 11

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Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:34 pm

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:40 am

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:48 am

One example of a linux program selling well doesnt negate a 'stereotype' (and ignore the fact ut2004 is a game, while zmud is an advanced console client), the few linux heads I know only use it because its all legally free - not because its technically better. Corporate sales of linux software is typically to get away from microsoft's "exorbitant prices", which doesnt really translate into a home user purchasing the same item.

There are exceptions to every rule, and ut2004 sounds like its one of the exceptions :)

* I myself use Clarkconnect Home Gateway server with a monthly subscription, which is built on redhat linux. This and ut2004 are the only things I could think of that linux users actually pay for, but theres probably more

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:38 pm

Linux has no copy protection mechanisms. Until something like eLicense or Armadillo exists for linux I don't plan to do any work on linux products.

Beginner Joined: 28 Oct 2005 Posts: 11

Why not write your own licenser, use an existing 'hostid' program, host a page that allows registration of the serial number against the hostid, generating an authcode. Allow one move without email. Email for additional moves
They get 30 days using the serial number then they have to goto the website with their serial and hostid codes to get the authcode.
There are prolly ways around it but it would stop 90% of the edonkey/bt and serial surfers.
Maybe worth thinking about, it works for Borland and IBM and could save you the money you need to keep on developing.
Anyhow,
regs,

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:24 pm

Just a status on this topic:

Sales have improved a bit, so I think part of the problem was the new 30-day trial on v7.2x. We got a spike of new orders 30 days after 7.20 was announced. Sales are still a bit low, but I think I can survive now until zMUDXP is ready.

I wanted to give me very great thanks to everyone who tried to help with sales during this past month. It was a tough time for us and it was great to see many of the zMUD users rally to keep us going. I'm continuing to work on MUD clients for those users who appeciate what I do. Those are the people who really keep me going. So thanks again to you!

I'm going to remove the "sticky" flag from this post and let it die out. The other issues discussed here, such as copy protection and linux can be discussed in other threads.