Zugg Software :: View topic

Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:59 pm

Just curious as to why all those of us still using ZMUD haven't upgraded to CMUD yet?

For me it breaks down to the following:

1) Hasn't been a public version released in a year and a half, and the beta seems to be perpetually imminent of going public (watch now there will be one tomorrow).
With all the new features (mapper changes is big for me) included in the beta versions , and lack of documentation (help files) on those features I decided I might as well wait before I make the jump to CMUD, start coding, and find out I want to change everything because a new feature appeard that would make something better.

2) Don't have time to script
I know I could import my ZMUD system into CMUD, and with some tweaking could get it to work, but I want to take advantage of CMUD's new features. Also, I have tons of ideas for new things I want in my scripts, and even more things that I need to fix. So I decided I might as well start from scratch with the coding. And, frankly, I don't have time to build a system right now with my work schedule.

3) Cost
I'm not really complaining about having to pay anything cause I don't mind the $15 or whatever it is, but it's more of a when I have to pay. I know CMUD v3 is going to be a paid upgrade for those of us with licenses more than 2 years old, and I don't see the point in spending the money now when I still have not resolved issues 1 & 2.

Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:15 am

1) Well, the 2.37 Public version of CMUD is still better than zMUD (which is over 5 years old now) in my opinion. The newer features in the Beta are not "deal killers". Any scripts that you make in v2.37 will continue to work in the v3.x public version. Waiting for a new public version is like waiting to buy a new computer just because something new might be released in another couple of months. In the meantime, you are missing out on all of the CMUD features that zMUD doesn't have.

Help files are never updated for Beta features (because it just confused people using the Public version) until right before a public release. It's always been that way, even back with zMUD.

Major public versions tend to be planned for once a year. And I'd rather wait and get it right than rush something out that causes more problems for people. While there are lots of mapper changes, any map that you create in the 2.37 public version will still convert into v3.x, so there really isn't a big rush to use the Beta version if you don't want to deal with it's bugs. Sounds like you have plenty of zMUD script improvement to keep you busy before you start worrying about the mapper changes (there are really no big changes to the mapper scripting).

Also, because v3.x is the first major version that some existing CMUD users will need to pay an upgrade fee for, I'm trying very hard to make sure that there are enough compelling features (such as the still-in-progress script wizard and trigger pattern wizard) to make the upgrade worthwhile. So that is another factor that is delaying this public release.

2) Why did you script zMUD in the first place? To improve your MUD experience, right? After all, you could be using plenty of free clients that don't have good scripting. But you got zMUD because you wanted the best. CMUD is no different...it's better scripting than zMUD. And CMUD Is mostly compatible with zMUD. Most of your scripts will probably work fine. CMUD has a Compatibility Report to help track down problems. And frankly, CMUD fixes many of the issues that made some scripting in zMUD a pain in the first place. The compatibility really depends upon how much you used unsupported "tricks" in zMUD scripting to get around various problems with it.

In the meantime, you are missing the new features in CMUD (see the Comparison Chart for details). It's like people who still use Windows 95 (yes, it's amazing to me that some still use Win95). They keep waiting to upgrade because Win95 still works and they are waiting for a stable and compelling new version of Windows. In the meantime they are wasting time with bugs and crashes in Win95 that have long since been fixed and missing out on newer features.

3) As you said, the upgrade is only for people who have had CMUD for more than 2 years. If you haven't bought CMUD yet, then this isn't going to effect you at all. The v3 public version will still be a free upgrade for you. Again, no real reason to wait. And really, $29 for CMUD is still a huge deal compared to the cost of most anything else out there. So don't get me started on that. Just don't to a movie or don't eat out one night and you have paid for CMUD for two years.

If you have tons of new ideas and things to fix in your scripts, the it's definitely the right time to start using CMUD and getting used to it. Whether you have time or not is your own decision. But it sounds like a "sooner or later" issue. It's certainly a waste of your limited and valuable time to continue trying to patch your existing zMUD scripts when zMUD is not being updated anymore and isn't working properly on newer versions of Windows. If you really want to get the most out of MUD playing, then you will eventually upgrade to CMUD...just a matter of time. Worrying about whether you might need to spend another $15 to upgrade to v5.x in two years or not isn't the issue. The issue is really whether you have the time to spend working on your scripts or not. If you don't have time to work on them, then keep using zMUD.

However, you are probably correct that the main reasons for people to still use zMUD instead of CMUD are:

a) lack of time to deal with scripts. This issue is never going away. It's an issue whether you upgrade to CMUD (80-90% compatible) or use a different client (0% compatible). And the longer you wait to switch to CMUD, the larger this issue will get.

b) lack of money. And honestly, that's mostly just an excuse. Compared to any number of real-world costs, CMUD is still dirt cheap for what you get.

But that is focusing on the negative. The reasons that people *should* use CMUD over zMUD:

a) Support. There is no email support for zMUD anymore. Whereas there is plenty of help and support for CMUD.

b) Windows compatibility. Yes, you can somewhat force zMUD to mostly work on Vista or Windows 7, but it's a pain and can always cause problems down the line. Why waste time with those kind of problems?

c) Newer features. Scripting works more like other scripting languages without the tricks and kludges in zMUD. Local variables are a non-brainer that can make your scripts a *lot* faster with less clutter of global variables. Support for stuff like ATCP makes mapping IRE MUDs a no-brainer (there is really no reason for any IRE player to be using zMUD instead of CMUD for this single reason). Support for MP3 sounds. Better script/code editor. Lua scripting (for those who care, this can be a big deal), SSH support in CMUDPro (again, for people who care it's a big deal).

d) Future upgrades. zMUD is not being updated. CMUD is. The features in (c) don't even touch on the new mapper in 3.x, or the new script wizard or the pattern wizard, or any other new feature planned for the future.

Sorry I couldn't resist posting to this thread. Because I get dozens of emails every week about this exact subject and I wanted to take the time to post about it publicly. I hear the reasons for not switching to CMUD all the time. Some reasons are valid, and some aren't. For some people, the $29 *is* a big deal. So I apologize for over-generalizing some of the arguments.

For the vast majority of people, there really isn't much of a comparison between the reasons not to upgrade and the reasons you *should* upgrade.

(Edited at 6:50pm)

Wanderer Joined: 31 Mar 2005 Posts: 58

Well I'm not a huge scripter and some of the things I seen people do on here is just mind bloggling. I do automate stuff and I don't use maps a great deal so for me zmud and it does EXACTLY what I need it to do.

Some of the script language can be a tad confusing but once I get round it it great. :)

GURU Joined: 23 Dec 2000 Posts: 4834 Location: USA

Would it help if a Wizard helped you to point-and-click your way to a complete trigger/etc? One of the neater but maybe not particularly the most awesome new features of the upcoming cmud public version will be a system of wizards to help struggling coders build the projects they want to build.

Wanderer Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 64

I had 2786 lines of triggers, aliases, buttons, gauges, mostly triggers.
So, that's why I can't upgrade to cMud yet, it took me 4 months to get swinging in zmud after mot mudding for 10 years,
and since I haven't gotten to mud much at all since my babies have been born, well, If I can mud at all, it's a jump in kick arse and logoff when the baby screams ensue kinda deal.

Someday... I will be able to mud,
Someday I would like to own cmud, and be able to have all my stuff working in it....

Someday I will be allowed a full nights sleep!

Wanderer Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 55 Location: USA

!chat in cmud.

Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:00 pm

But there are so many other ways to chat these days. Either with clients like Pidgin or Trillian. Or, my favorite is using voice chat with Ventrillo when my group. While integrated chat is planned for CMUD it has gotten a lower priority because there are so many other options available.

Apprentice Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 167 Location: aztx

1) The command line is slow for me. I press enter and have to wait for it to disappear or appear on my mud screen.
2) I had trouble with some of my scripts.
3) I have Windows 7/Fedora/Windows xp but not Windows Vista :(
4) 1 is the real reason.

...does anyone else have trouble with the speed of the command line? (where you type I mean)

Thank you.

GURU Joined: 23 Dec 2000 Posts: 4834 Location: USA

There are enough potential reasons the command line could be slow that a new thread should more properly be dedicated to the task. However, 13 windows, a 26k-room map, a DB or two, and the Package Editor open for me do not equate to a slow command line.

Wanderer Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 55 Location: USA

chat used in zmud is not for social reasons. It is mostly for faster than type trigger responses to in client events. If I am "dying" i want people to know before i switch to aol or even have to type it. In short I can communicate a lot more information than what even i know at the time with chat.

And as usual MM interoperability would have to be absolutely supported.

This is absolutely the top reason why people do not switch to Zmud or Cmud. Absolutely. Especially mudders that don't script, I.E. not on this forum.

Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:14 pm

Scirkhan: you should post (1) over in the CMUD forum to get help.

Newbie Joined: 07 Apr 2010 Posts: 7

i absolutely agree. Chat is the main reason most people either use Zmud or Mudmaster. Serious mudders need scripting to get by. They also need the ability to communicate with their groups or forms INSTANTLY. In other words not limited by the WAIT states the MUD imposes. Plus they like not being logged by the MUD etc. Chat in cmud would bring a slew of new buyers in for CMUD. I really think you have your priorities askew with putting chat low on your todo list.

Again---

Chat even if half baked would be the absolute BEST thing you could put into a new beta for CMUD. You would get an IMMEDIATE influx of cash Zugg. From new buyers, converts from MM or other clients, as well as upgrades from Zmud. Let's talk about gaining marketshare alone. That would help. I can see from your other posts you definately have a fixation on the mapper which is cool, but you have to include the features that are going to help finance your future ventures. It is worth the extra time you put into it.

Thanks

GURU Joined: 23 Dec 2000 Posts: 4834 Location: USA

Wanderer Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 55 Location: USA

The above comment is beyond reasoning.

Chat is much less "unfair" than say mapping, or scripting in general, which by extension would make CMud the most "unfair" client.

And lets face it curse words will bring down any Mud, we all know that to be true, especially with our incredibly young user group.

I can ride the magic unicorns to happy land too.

Hiding my "illicit" affairs since 1998, along with every other user on my Mud.

Wanderer Joined: 06 Feb 2010 Posts: 81

I use cmud on most muds, but I'm having an issue with one mud and thought I'd see if I had the same issue in zmud.

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:30 pm

Matt, I think it more than a little unfair to say that just because you don't want your chat routed through your Mud, you are automatically doing something illicit or wrong. There are a hundred valid reasons why you may not want the Mud administration privy to your private conversations. That's like saying just because you don't want your neighbors listening in on your home conversations within your house, you must be doing something illegal.

Newbie Joined: 07 Apr 2010 Posts: 7

The whole point of my above comment is this. I use chat because I might be lagged due to WAIT state in the mud and I want to chat to my clan that I need help. There are a million different reasons for me to use chat and none of them are illegal, immoral, or illicit. The whole point of my point is that a LOT of people use chat. WHY not put it in. Other than integrated chat, there is NO reason why anyone would choose to use MudMaster as opposed to CMUD.

Wizard Joined: 26 Mar 2008 Posts: 1547

Newbie Joined: 18 May 2010 Posts: 1

Zmud works great, paid for it in like 1998 or so. In 2010, I'm really not into paying 30 bucks for a new mud client. To stay on the main topic question.

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 1:25 am

As stupid as it may sound to people, the reason I haven't upgraded is because I like to print my scripts out when I am working on them so that I can make notes on the side.
To me there's nothing like holding the sheets of paper and going back and forth between them to look up what you are referencing.

The fact that a simple ONE line script like
#TRIG {^You get (%d) coins} {split %1} autosplit

becomes a 10 line mess to read when printed from the cmud XML file, means that a zmud 10 page print becomes a cmud 50 page print.

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 2:02 am

It's XML. It would be trivial for somebody to write a converter program that "simplified" the XML output. The issue is that there are many features in CMUD that you cannot access via the simple single-line zMUD command (like many button options) that XML is required for. This will never change, sorry.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Adept Joined: 04 May 2007 Posts: 292 Location: Boston

I am using Zmud again, rather then still. I like CMud except I get confused with dead windows and repeated packages which I am unsure should be checked or not checked, and spend way too much time with ugly hierarchies. I may be obtuse, but I am using ZMud happily; all I need worry about is complete and total corruption, but never if my code will be enabled.

With my level of understanding (and I did not study hard) it is difficult to get my code to look cool in the tree, either.

That said, I am sure someday soon I will want to understand CMud as I should. I am still using ZMud as a fault. I bought CMud as a thank you but am happy it is being developed. I have win 7 on one computer.

ZMud is still fun. Once I work out some code I'll bring to Cmud. (code from some time ago).

Sorcerer Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 715

I'm still using zMUD for a couple of reasons:

1. I'm unemployed at the moment, so I have other priorities for money.
2. zMUD still works great on my Windows XP virtual machine running in VMWare under Mandriva Linux... NOT gonna go to a standard Windows Desktop for any reason. Not that this is really a concern, I'm sure CMUD will work fine in the VM too.
3. I do have almost 200,000 lines of script coded. But again, not really holding me back since it'd be cool to upgrade them ;)
4. However, the killer for me... the plugin I use: MudReader. You see, I depend on it. I play a MUD that allows 3 characters online at once. And I don't like tiled windows. I watch ONE window, and have MudReader announcing important things like deaths, low hp, and other such to me. I refuse to MUD w/out it. So, give me that functionality in CMUD and when I go back to work I'll probably upgrade.

Wanderer Joined: 16 Oct 2006 Posts: 62

Simple My CMud sends messages like "connection reset by peer" and access violations trying to write to protected addresses etc. when I'm in the middle of a big fight and I have to quit and reopen CMud. I often lose the fights when this happens. I realize it is probably something in my offensive scripts because I use Vadi for defense but it is soooo annoying I went back from windows Vista to windows XP and CMud to ZMud just to play my character. I use C-mud for an alt but although I still get reset, the alt isn't a fighter so I can tolerate it normally.