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Progonoi Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:35 pm
[OT] PVP Muds and RP.
Progonoi
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:40 pm   
 
You know, IRE MUDs ain't the only ones that are out there. I'm frankly fed up with the whole comparison already. That's fine if you haven't
played anything else, I haven't either, only vice versa. And that's the whole trouble I'm facing right now.

If I ought to choose (because I'm one of those guys who's unlikely to *really* stop doing something once he has started), I'd probably choose Lusternia. What I at first thought to be Achaea's clone, really isn't and there's a lot of more stuff to like than in Achaea. Though
perhaps I'll face the same leveling trouble there as time goes by. One of the things in Achaea that really threw me off after a while
(and at higher levels) was that pretty much every area was always full of people and I was unable to do anything at all (and yes, even
one person in area ruined it). I was always thinking that areas should be bigger with more NPCs. I haven't had any such problems in
Lusternia yet though I just finished the newbie area there, so who knows (but I used to have real trouble in Achaea *already* in newbie
area).

Anyway, while it makes sense that OOC clans might take an interest of you once you're experienced enough, it still means I have to
go through all the RP trouble first to get there. Yes, it is trouble. Unlikely though that my city would even have OOC clans like that. I might
be wrong but it's just a gut feeling.

And while we're already on the subject, I have never actually understood the point of 'buff' items you actually ought to buy for real money. I mean, for something that RPesque, they're sure punching the business donkey way too much. Plus it's frankly stupid and
unbalancing for the game, imo.

Lastly, yeah. I'd rather play a MUD with no "automated killing". I agree that it becomes very annoying over time. And I have my own
experiences to draw from.

Anyway, I suppose if I have to go for 'either, or', I'd probably keep playing in Lusternia for the time being once my RL schedule is more lax to afford it. I was just thinking that perhaps there'd be an alternative I would enjoy more and which would, in some ways, resemble to my old MUD. It's pretty ironic that while Z/CMud products are promoted out as clients for a playground of 'hundred of MUDs', there are
only like a handful that actually matter. And none of them in all honestly fit my nature.
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oldguy2
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:22 am   
 
Quote:
And while we're already on the subject, I have never actually understood the point of 'buff' items you actually ought to buy for real money. I mean, for something that RPesque, they're sure punching the business donkey way too much. Plus it's frankly stupid and unbalancing for the game, imo.


Well I agree with you and so does hundreds of other people. However, there isn't much of a choice if you want the same kind of combat system of give and take. Honestly, if I could find other MUDs that had the same type of system, I would play those instead. I'm just saying it seems like you didn't stick around long enough to discover everything there was to discover. You have a certain type of MUD you are looking for, but I only know of two others that have the same type of combat system and those are the old Avalons, which I played for years too. You have to pay a monthly fee though and depending on what continent you live on, it can get expensive sadly. If you do find another Mud with the same type of system let me know. Very Happy
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Scirkhan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:50 am   
 
bah but you would like lensmoor!
Godwars is a good mud, there is also some stuff/people here who might help you if you have a problem getting used to the map.
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Rahab
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:59 pm   
 
There are very very few muds that aren't 'autocombat' as you describe it. If that's what you are looking for, you will have few choices, I'm afraid.
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Taz
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:55 pm   
 
telnet://foxmud.com:4848

It's autocombat but you level in all 4 classes so there's plenty of variation for killing stuff and plenty of the mobs are tough and no way can you get through without actually responding to what's happening.
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Zugg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:16 pm   
 
Quote:
And while we're already on the subject, I have never actually understood the point of 'buff' items you actually ought to buy for real money. I mean, for something that RPesque, they're sure punching the business donkey way too much. Plus it's frankly stupid and
unbalancing for the game, imo.

Well, I actually give them a break for this. It's becoming harder and harder to run these games for free, so I applaud any efforts by the MUDs to try and find some way of paying for the game without actually charging a full subscription. Hosting costs money, and so does bandwidth. Even if you get all of the time to admin and code the MUD donated by volunteers, you still can't get away from the hosting costs.

It's a catch-22. If you are a successful MUD, then your bandwidth and requirements reach a point where you can't do it for free. But once you start trying to get money to run the game, people start to bash you and go somewhere else. As a society, I think we really need to get away from this "everything should be free" mentality. It just isn't sustainable.

Without their items that people pay real money for, the game probably wouldn't exist. It's just like with CMUD and zMUD. If they were free, they wouldn't exist because I couldn't afford to work on them full time. Everyone has bills to pay, so you can't expect everything to be free.

Sorry to rant so much, but it's a hot topic for me. If you don't like items/buffs that cost real money, then just don't use them. Don't worry about whether they "unbalance" the game. Just have fun playing the game your own way. If a game doesn't suit your playing style, then that's the time to look elsewhere. But every game is going to have some aspect that you don't like, or some certain set of players that are annoying. You just have to ignore some of that and focus on making your own fun. For most games, including MUD, the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.

For that, I tend to err on the RP side of this discussion. If I wasn't RPing in a MUD, then I might as well be playing a graphical MMO, or a single-player RPG on my XBox. But as we've seen, everyone has their own opinions of what's fun. Which is why there is such a nice diverse set of MUDs to play.
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oldguy2
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:00 pm   
 
True but Cmud doesn't cost $480 like a single level 3 weapon does in Achaea. Razz I don't mind them selling items. It's the absurd costs. People literally spend thousands on the game. Compared to even graphical game items it is expensive. Also it will be much cheaper for someone in the UK than someone in the US.
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Rorso
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:07 pm   
 
Zugg wrote:

Sorry to rant so much, but it's a hot topic for me. If you don't like items/buffs that cost real money, then just don't use them. Don't worry about whether they "unbalance" the game. Just have fun playing the game your own way. If a game doesn't suit your playing style, then that's the time to look elsewhere. But every game is going to have some aspect that you don't like, or some certain set of players that are annoying. You just have to ignore some of that and focus on making your own fun. For most games, including MUD, the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.

I think this is true as well. The problem is that to many people MUDs seem to be competitions. You have to have the best equipment, the best character, the best stats Rolling Eyes. Often the "pay for perk" system seem to become part of the ingame economy in those games that use it. For example if it is credit based then players might start trade credits for ingame gold or player made/looted items. So it becomes part of the play.

I believe the idea of "everything should be free" largely comes from abuse in the system. For example I use advertisement blocker to get rid of advertisements on websites. One day while I was browsing one of my favorite websites some green nasty goo filled the entire browser with advertisement text written on it. Closing it down in disgust as I did I thought the monster it was had been defeated. However from the corner of the website it would continue to lure with weird sounds and small animations to try get my attention. After that I realized those ads are spam. So I downloaded an adblocker. After that visiting websites has been a much better experience.

It is similar with software. Companies simply made too expensive software, at too low quality(e.g you had to pay for the necessary update). cMUD/zMUD, Windows, and games are pretty much the only software that isn't free that I use currently. I did buy a $100 C++ compiler. After a month Microsoft released a free one, that turned out to be better as well.

Quote:

For that, I tend to err on the RP side of this discussion. If I wasn't RPing in a MUD, then I might as well be playing a graphical MMO, or a single-player RPG on my XBox. But as we've seen, everyone has their own opinions of what's fun. Which is why there is such a nice diverse set of MUDs to play.

MUD: You can create your own.
MMRPG: You are forced to play someone else's.

There's lots of other huge benefits MUDs have as well. You can find smaller pbases where who you are matter somewhat more, and of course you can usually communicate directly with staff members. I both read books and watch TV. I think both have a place.
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Rorso
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:24 pm   
 
oldguy2 wrote:
True but Cmud doesn't cost $480 like a single level 3 weapon does in Achaea. Razz I don't mind them selling items. It's the absurd costs. People literally spend thousands on the game. Compared to even graphical game items it is expensive. Also it will be much cheaper for someone in the UK than someone in the US.

$480 for a virtual item sounds crazy. You could buy a quite nice laptop using that money. Does people really buy that weapon?
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gamma_ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:57 pm   
 
Rorso wrote:
oldguy2 wrote:
True but Cmud doesn't cost $480 like a single level 3 weapon does in Achaea. [:P] I don't mind them selling items. It's the absurd costs. People literally spend thousands on the game. Compared to even graphical game items it is expensive. Also it will be much cheaper for someone in the UK than someone in the US.

$480 for a virtual item sounds crazy. You could buy a quite nice laptop using that money. Does people really buy that weapon?

The most that I personally know of anyone spending (over approximately 2 real life years) is around 16,000$US. A lot of the most popular items aren't even "buffs", but just convenience items, for example a 255$ item which allows you to quickly get to certain common locations (or 580$ if you want the upgraded version which goes to more locations). But that's definitely the bizarre end of things, anyway.

Kind of back on topic, does anyone have a list of the games which don't have "autocombat", besides IRE games? (Yes, I understand that some games have autocombat where you still have to do stuff besides, but it just.. doesn't feel right? Also, most of them are SLOW.)
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Progonoi
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:37 pm   
 
Well, personally I'd say that there aren't such diversified choice of MUDs out there, but I suppose, in a way, it's a matter of opinion anyway.

Taz, your suggestion definitely sounds good and I'll look into it once I get more time. I pretty much love the multi-class aspect, I can tell you that.

Whoa, I knew the basics of credits bundle costs (specially for Achaea), but I didn't know items really cost *that much*. This is outrageous, even if I totally understand the money aspect Zugg brings up. Personally I don't know in what way exactly would those items give an upper hand to the player owning them though. If it's the same as with levels (lower level player can easily kill higher level one, given he/she has more skill) and items are more like fancy 'window dress', I'd say let mad people have at it, but if such items would actually change the course of a certain fight, then there's a problem as I'm sure all of you would agree. In that case it won't be the case of 'playing your own game' anymore. But, as I said, I know relatively nothing about the items so it may very well be an overreaction on my part.

I suppose with some I'll eternally have the confrontation aspect over RP. Granted, maybe I'm just a wrong person playing MUDs, but I don't think suggesting/accepting/enforcing the 'virtual RP verbality' (lacking a better way to put it) regarding RP is something really sought after. I mean, when you start playing you already enter a RP world of sorts - you choose class and race. You start to inhabit a fantasy world. Why's there the need to shove it in verbally, making you actually type in line after line of roleplay? I'm not saying it's wrong by any means and I respect the notion because a lot of people enjoy it, but that's what I personally think. For example, I rarely if never read long paragraphs within scenarios and/or campaigns in Heroes of Might and Magic III/IV (my favorite games of all time), yet I very, very much enjoy the game itself - mining, gaining new abilities, reaching new levels and ultimately beating all my opponents. Does it make me in some ways not respect the general RP outlining the game might have? In the eyes of some people, sure I suppose. But that doesn't make it an paramount of truth.

gamma_ray, I'd be interested in the same list myself, but yet I've found such. While I didn't search for hours on end last time I checked Mudconnect site, I must say that while a good effort is being made for helping people to search for MUDs, it's pretty hard to find anything
either. I ended up checking nothing but maybe one option (no RP) and all the MUDs given were mostly ones that were near distinction.
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Arde
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:06 pm   
 
You know, Progonoi, I've just checked one MUD I know well on Mudconnector and found that it is in the "Roleplaying is Accepted" category. Knowing that people there are chatting\talking about everything freely, I would not search for Non-Roleplaying Mud, but check Roleplaying is Accepted muds instead.
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Progonoi
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:15 pm   
 
Oh, tricky! Very nice. Thanks for a very insightful suggestion! I'll sure try it out this way as well :)
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Arde
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:27 pm   
 
Progonoi

your example with HOMMs is quite good. If you do not accept some of their RP elements while someone does - it is equivalent to "Roleplaying is Accepted". Wink
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Zugg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:41 pm   
 
Wow, I almost want to retract my post...$480 is crazy. I'd maybe pay for items in a game if they were like $5-10 or so.

It *is* harding finding good MUDs, even with a resource such as MUD Connector. There are just so many in the list and it's hard to tell when information is out of date, or what their player level really is, etc. I agree that if you only look at the sites that have a pretty large player base (>100) then the list isn't as diverse as it looks at first.

For me, RP is about losing myself in a world. I want to sit in a dark room and read the text descriptions from the MUD and form a picture in my head of the world. That's why I like the text-based games since it engages my imagination, which pulls me more into a game. And while I don't necessarily want to be forced to talk completely in RP (with thee's and thou's etc), I almost always need to turn off global chat channels because someone chatting about real-world politics, etc, just breaks my immersion in the game. I like to have an OOC channel for when I'm just in the mood to chat. But if I'm exploring a new area, or trying to figure out a quest, I don't want any non-RP chat to get in the way.

So I look for MUDs that have it both ways. I want OOC and non-RP some nights, but other nights I want to turn that off and just have RP. So I want a MUD that has "RP enforced on RP channels". In other words, if someone starts talking OOC real-life stuff on a channel for RP, then I get annoyed and want them banned. But I don't care if they do it on designated OOC channels. Clan/guild channels can be a tough topic sometimes because most MUDs only allow one channel per guild, so it ends up being a mix of RP and OOC (mostly OOC). So I have to turn that off to...or, using CMUD, I just send it to a Clan window that is behind my other windows so I don't see it during normal playing and can just click on the tab and read it when I'm in the mood for guild stuff.
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oldguy2
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:03 am   
 
It is crazy.

Here is a comparison.

Cost of credits

Cost of weapon items

Another issue I am finding is membership costs. Avalon for example is in British pounds. Therefore, I have to pay double the monthly fee in US dollars due to the declining value of the dollar.

There aren't any other choices that I know of though for the same type of combat system, and I severely dislike the scripted autocombat stuff.
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Fang Xianfu
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:10 am   
 
Actually, you'll find that the cost of buying pounds has improved over the past year, not declined. And incidentally, just because $2=£1 doesn't mean that things are cheaper - PPP data show that the cost of living in the US and UK is actually pretty similar (there's a nice map on Wikipedia). What this means is that while £1 is $2, a £1 loaf of bread would cost $2 in the US. In fact, I wish this were true of all things - books are actually twice as expensive here as they are over there ($8 versus £8) and Windows Vista can bugger right off ($300 versus £300 at release). Don't even get me started on how expensive fuel is over here.

Basically, my point is that if Avalon charged in US$, they'd want twice as many dollars as they currently want pounds. So don't get too worked up.

I guess $480 is ridiculous, but people are willing to pay it - if it was too much, nobody would pay it and they wouldn't make any money. I think the real appeal of their system is that you can buy credits with game gold as well as real money, and you can also win them and charge credits for things, and all sorts. I know Larkin often boasts about never having paid for real credits, and he has an awful lot of artifacts.
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Caled
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:18 am   
 
I've been meaning to ask you this for a while, Oldguy2, but is there any chance you played Khaseem from Achaea a few years back? I don't remember how I originally got the idea you might do, but I was just reminded of it again when you mentioned Avalon here.

IRE muds are overpriced, in my opinion. On the other hand, enough people spend money there anyway, so you can't blame them. It was supply/demand that set those prices (really, it was. The original ones were sold at auction, and the results used to set prices).
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oldguy2
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:27 am   
 
No. However, I have noticed quite a few names from Avalon in Achaea lately. I'd really rather play Avalon but it's like $30 a month now and maybe 10 people log in. Kind of pointless to log into an empty city and guild all the time.
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oldguy2
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:30 am   
 
Fang Xianfu wrote:

I guess $480 is ridiculous, but people are willing to pay it - if it was too much, nobody would pay it and they wouldn't make any money. I think the real appeal of their system is that you can buy credits with game gold as well as real money, and you can also win them and charge credits for things, and all sorts. I know Larkin often boasts about never having paid for real credits, and he has an awful lot of artifacts.


Larkin sold scripts for credits. A lot of people do that. Some sell their curing systems for 50 credits each and so on. It still marginalizes most people though when they charge such ridiculous prices. For $10,000 I can put down a nice payment on a car or house. People pay $100k for real estate in Second Life, but it is still kind of dumb in my opinion.
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Fang Xianfu
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:26 am   
 
Actually, for the price of that one sword you could buy a house. And yeah, it is dumb, but my point is just that the opportunities are there to make credits even if you don't want to pay. It's not like they're saying "You must give us $1000 or you will forever suck at this game".
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Rorso
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:31 am   
 
Fang Xianfu wrote:
Actually, for the price of that one sword you could buy a house. And yeah, it is dumb, but my point is just that the opportunities are there to make credits even if you don't want to pay. It's not like they're saying "You must give us $1000 or you will forever suck at this game".

Let's look at it for what it is. It is unethical business. Even if you bought some $400 sword you could probably get banned the next day and thus lose it. If someone as gamma_ray mentions has spent $16,000 on these virtual items then they are either quite wealthy or they have taken a loan to buy it.


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Fang Xianfu
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:41 am   
 
...I think that's quite an exaggeration. All games of that kind have an EULA that makes it clear that violations will result in banning. It's not like they're setting out to deceive you about that. And if they did wantonly ban people with very little reason, people would stop paying them, or even stop playing at all, simply because the risk is too high. Those people who choose to spend money on the game are also choosing the bear the burden of risk that it implies. Basically, if you're going to spend $16k on a game, you shouldn't do something bad enough to get banned.

And, well, I'm not going to criticise people for spending their money on what they want to spend it on. Clearly the company is making money, so business model is working, and so the prices are right. I mean, we'd all like it if they were cheaper but you could say that about anything.
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Rorso
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:03 am   
 
Fang Xianfu wrote:

And, well, I'm not going to criticise people for spending their money on what they want to spend it on. Clearly the company is making money, so business model is working, and so the prices are right. I mean, we'd all like it if they were cheaper but you could say that about anything.

I guess you're right, and I was wrong. I doubt I would personally buy a virtual item at that price though.
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seamer
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:02 am   
 
Charging money for something that deep down is a hobby for everyone involved just grates upon my nerves. :) Even when a mud has hundreds of users, bandwidth isn't exactly critical. If you're on a good link, you can easily host 100+ people off a regular at&t dsl line.

After spending at least a decade working on various systems, even 'paid' services get their code from somewhere free, and some use code from a license where getting paid for those services is against the agreement. Why should they upsell that code and make a profit while the original author gets zip?

No...if you want to pay for a game, pay for something intensive like WoW. Leave text games as free, and in our case - opensource. :)
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