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para
Beginner


Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:46 pm   

Anti-robot code?
 
For the mud I'm playing, the admin is trying to use some code like following to restrict our
use of robot.
Code:
         
 @       @           @@@               
@@       @@          @   @         
 @       @              @     
 @       @             @                   
 @       @                             
 @       @                         
 @       @              @                 
 @       @          @   @         
@@@      @@@           @@@     
                             

We need to reply the number as "113" like in 30 secs. Does anyone know a method to read these codes
and reply in cmud?
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charneus
Wizard


Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 1876
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:29 pm   
 
Let me get this straight - you're asking us to help you evade detection of your botting? Sorry, but I highly doubt anyone here will help you break rules on your MUD. And the admin should be smarter about it and change it up every time to prevent scripts like that from being used.

Disgustedly,
Charneus
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para
Beginner


Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:58 pm   
 
aren't we using cmud/zmud for botting? What I asked is a general question, its all about handwriting recognization.
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charneus
Wizard


Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 1876
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:10 pm   
 
No, we use the clients to make MUDding easier. The accepted definition of botting is utilizing scripts that allow your character to play while you are away from the keyboard. They are scripts that run your character from mob to mob, killing them and moving on. They are scripts that auto-run quests and tasks. Most MUDs ban botting, and it sounds like yours does.

Many users of z/CMUD use the program to organize, to store databases, to do things which they have to enter commands to execute. What you're asking is for a way to leave your character botting so you can do other things and not get caught. Therefore, it'll be hard to find someone to help you.

Charneus
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intoK
Apprentice


Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 190

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:13 pm   
 
if patterns are not predefined (ie. are randomized) that would be pretty much impossible to realize from zscript
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para
Beginner


Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:06 pm   
 
Hehe, thanks . Maybe its different here, I play chinese mud and all of us use bot scripts, the admins know about that, they keep changing the mud code and we keep changing
our robot script. So basically, its a fight between players and admins,haha.
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Fang Xianfu
GURU


Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 5155
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:03 am   
 
Ignoring for a moment the ethics of this sort of thing - questionable though they may be - the simple answer is that it's going to be extremely difficult. The patterns in question can vary wildly from case to case, making them very difficult to match, and that's the point really. In short, no, you can't.
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para
Beginner


Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:42 pm   
 
ouch, thanks anyway.
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Rorso
Wizard


Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:35 pm   
 
Actually this might be solvable. You could for example try with a neural network and train it on input samples using the back propagation algorithm.
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intoK
Apprentice


Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 190

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:52 pm   
 
ha! nn in zscript/lua?
using external programs would be probably easier to convert ascii block to bitmap and run trough some ocr
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smarshall
Newbie


Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:47 pm   
 
para wrote:
Hehe, thanks . Maybe its different here, I play chinese mud and all of us use bot scripts, the admins know about that, they keep changing the mud code and we keep changing
our robot script. So basically, its a fight between players and admins,haha.


Well it would seem wise to make something that would bring that you're being tested to your notice. Play an MP3/WAV, color the background etc.

I am assuming that you're greatly underestimating the time or they give you a few choices etc. Otherwise I think it is a bad policy and rather foolish for people to play that game for long periods. I at least think it is rude to not look at people in my home when they ask questions and any game which can't understand that I might be looking away for a few minutes isn't one I'd play.

I realize this doesn't seem to address what you wanted to do, but would give you some protection for minor inattentiveness.
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Vijilante
SubAdmin


Joined: 18 Nov 2001
Posts: 5182

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:33 pm   
 
It is not impossible, but extremely difficult. In the case of the particular text you posted I must say that even after you say that is supposed to be "113" I can't see it.

I would suggest finding a different MUD. Admin behavior such as that is likely to alienate most of the player base, and without many players there is often little reason to become invested in a given mud.
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Tarn
GURU


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 867
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:34 pm   
 
Fang Xianfu wrote:
Ignoring for a moment the ethics of this sort of thing - questionable though they may be - the simple answer is that it's going to be extremely difficult. The patterns in question can vary wildly from case to case, making them very difficult to match, and that's the point really. In short, no, you can't.


Also walking around the ethics question...

Aside from Intok's comment about ocring it, if the "font" is always the same, you can probably trigger on a single line somewhere near the middle provided that all of the numbers look unique there. You'd be trying to match the pattern for a single number in one of the three locations for digits (which probably have fixed-width blocks). It would be pretty easy given more samples.

This isn't a very effective anti-scripting measure.

If the admins want something a little bit harder to dodge, they can download something like figlet (text input, ASCII art output in a variety of fonts) and pick settings and some surrounding text randomly, and then maybe sprinkle a little bit of noise to make pattern-matching more difficult.

-Tarn

Edit: I took a closer look at the sample. The level of difficulty would be different depending on how much of the oddness in the sample is bad copy/paste and how much is actual obfuscation by the admins.
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excell
Newbie


Joined: 24 Oct 2008
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:03 am   
 
no expert could help you, this need your smart to achieve this. cmud could provide you the language, like c, vb, but excellent script still need your effort.

It is not just a recognition programming. Your robot need to achieve illegibility recognition.
I know you are a xyj playing guy. And the issue was not that simple as Para said.
If it was just a monochrom symbol recognition, maybe it is possible to handle.
Para didn't mention that it was lots of symbol with ANSI color. The recognition result based on cogeneric color is the only right answer.
So if you need program to achieve that , you firstly need capture each symbol's ANSI color code then analysis.
Unfortunately, zmud or cmud didn't pay much attention to give good command on color capture and analysis.
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umdbandit
Wanderer


Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:52 pm   
 
Rorso wrote:
Actually this might be solvable. You could for example try with a neural network and train it on input samples using the back propagation algorithm.


This is what I did to solve a similar problem. Was actually for a school project for voice recognition, but it is pretty much the same thing. So this would definitely work. That being said, please post a bunch more samples of this. Lets try and figure out if neural networks are the right path before we decide to walk down it :P Also I'd like more information as far as.. does the time change... are you given multiple chances. etc.

Also, try not to let the preachers bother you. They are just trying to dish out their own arbitrary flavor of morality.
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ralgith
Sorcerer


Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 715

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:24 pm   
 
Obeying the rules of each individual MUD isn't an arbitrary flavor of morality. And trust me, I'm no saint. Heck, I'm banned from two MUDs for abusing the rules. However, I did it on my own without dragging anyone else into it ;)
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Tarn
GURU


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 867
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:19 pm   
 
excell wrote:
no expert could help you, this need your smart to achieve this. cmud could provide you the language, like c, vb, but excellent script still need your effort.

It is not just a recognition programming. Your robot need to achieve illegibility recognition.


Very many smart people have tried to devise CAPTCHAS (which are both easy to pass for a human and hard to pass for a machine). They have failed so far.

This particular one doesn't look very secure to me. Without more examples, we can't comment in more detail.

If you're trying to break a stated policy and this is the enforcement mechanism, you won't get much sympathy around here. If there is no policy but they try to make triggers hard, then that's half the fun :)

-Tarn
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Rorso
Wizard


Joined: 14 Oct 2000
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:42 pm   
 
Tarn wrote:
If you're trying to break a stated policy and this is the enforcement mechanism, you won't get much sympathy around here. If there is no policy but they try to make triggers hard, then that's half the fun :)

As I see it the problem is that this forum has no rules about this. Technically zMUD/cMUD is an application that break the rules on many MUD games. The kind of scripting you can do with it is way more advanced than would be needed to simply play the games. As I remember it Achaea used to have an anti-trigger system. People on this forum did work together to break it.

Some MUDs would forbid instant messaging clients if they could.

Edit: What I am trying to say is that perhaps there should be some ethical guidelines setup in this forum.
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Zugg
MASTER


Joined: 25 Sep 2000
Posts: 23379
Location: Colorado, USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:55 pm   
 
The only "official rule" that we have is this (from the end of the CMUD License Agreement):
Quote:
Users must also take responsibility for restrictions imposed by any MUD game they play relating to the use of client software such as CMUD.

So, if you are violating a rule on your MUD, then you are also technically violating the CMUD license agreement.

I don't police this kind of stuff in the forums because every MUD has different rules. It's up to the end-user to understand the rules for their MUD and abide by them. Keep in mind that it is *not* very hard for a MUD to detect most rule violations...it's just a matter of how much effort they want to put into policing their rules. But most MUDs have no sense of humor about rule violations, and you could easily try to log in some day to find your MUD character completely deleted by the Admins. Is losing your MUD character worth the risk of violating the MUD rules? That's up to you to decide. But there are hundreds of different MUDs out there with different rules, and my advice is to usually find a different MUD that doesn't have such strict rules about scripting.

What we *do* police on this forum is anyone blatantly posting specific scripts that are illegal on a specific MUD. If the MUD admin contacts me and complains about a post on this site, then I usually will delete the offending post. It's only happened once or twice in 10+ years, but it's possible. If anyone wants to get into specific technical details of breaking specific rules on specific MUDs, then you should take that discussion to a different site.
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ralgith
Sorcerer


Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 715

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:20 pm   
 
As Zugg pointed out, it is relatively simple to catch violators. No human can enter a series of commands as fast as a script can for one, so simply snooping (watching a player's view of the MUD) someone is usually a dead giveaway. It can also be detected via code implementation as is done on a variety of MUDs. Now some people will argue... but I'm just holding down enter and sending the command more than once. Ok, sure. Fine. But how is that a valid argument when you just issued 50 unique commands in under 10 seconds. OOPS!! Scripted :D So, yes, its easy to detect violators and really its up to each MUD admin. I like Zugg's policy on this and enforce similar on my own forums.
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umdbandit
Wanderer


Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:27 pm   
 
Well I'll have to disagree with the degree of easiness it is to catch 'violators'. Poor violators are easy to catch, and skilled ones arent. But anyways, this is all a moot point. This thread is about a specific technical problem, and to be honest, it is a pretty interesting one. So I suggest we focus on the problem and that if we want to talk morals/ethics, we do it on another thread, where we wont bog down the technical progress.
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Tarn
GURU


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 867
Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:35 am   
 
Rorso wrote:

As I remember it Achaea used to have an anti-trigger system. People on this forum did work together to break it.


Zugg handled the important general points.

Just to be clear on Achaea because I understand how some of the thread titles could be misleading to you and others: triggers are allowed while automated bots are not (written policy). Part of the challenge is scripting effectively on a "hostile" server- it sometimes sends junk (such as misspellings and asterisks) and it allows users to send junk mimicking legitimate output ("illusions"). In fact, elaborate sets of triggers assembled by players are openly advertised for sale (real $) on their own forums.

-Tarn
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Rainchild
Wizard


Joined: 10 Oct 2000
Posts: 1551
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:49 am   
 
Seems to me the easiest way to solve this is for someone to stay at the keys :p

Failing that, maybe someone else could stay at the keys, not necessarily physically at _your_ keys, you could give them some kind of remote desktop access to watch your screen, but even so, I wouldn't have a clue how a human could pull a "3" out of that wierd symbol, let alone a computer.
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umdbandit
Wanderer


Joined: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:49 pm   
 
cant get anywhere with this without more examples though :/
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para
Beginner


Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:12 pm   
 
Code:
@@@      @@      @@    @@@   
@        @ @     @ @   @   @ 
@         @         @   @   @ 
@         @ @           @   @ 
@@@         @    @  @    @@@   
@   @   @   @           @   @ 
@   @   @@  @   @@@@@   @   @ 
@   @       @       @   @   @ 
@@@       @@      @@    @


Edit Vijilante: added code tags
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