Zugg Software :: View topic

Novice Joined: 10 Apr 2003 Posts: 45 Location: USA

I never had a need or a desire to upgrade from zMUD to CMUD, but I recently put together a new computer which includes Windows Vista and now all versions of zMUD on my hard drive produce the following "forced shutdown" error:

"Access violation at 0x779014A (tried to write to 0x00040FF0), program terminated."

I see that people who recently purchased zMUD are being offered free upgrades to CMUD. Unfortunately when I bought ZMUD, it was several years ago.... I don't remember exactly how long ago, but I think it's been seven years since my registration shows an old address I haven't lived at since 2001.

Nonetheless, I still paid good money for zMUD. Are owners of zMUD entitled to any kind of discount whatsoever? Even just a small one?

Please do not bother to answer if you are going to say "sorry you will not get CMUD for a single penny less than full price as if you were never a Zuggsoft customer. Please just don't bother saying it. In fact, if you are going to tell me that, then please do me a favor and just delete my Zuggsoft account entirely, as this will be my last visit to Zuggsoft.

I do NOT expect a "pro bono" upgrade as if I'd bought it in the last 30 days. I am not that petulant nor that juvenile. However I do very firmly believe that having bought and paid for zMUD in good faith, no matter how far back, I (and anyone in the same position as me) would be entitled to even just a small discount as a courtesy for longtime customers. If this is not the case at all, and you expect people who've had it as long as I have to pay full price again.... then please just delete my account and don't bother answering my post. I can make do with java if I must.

Thanks,

Holly

SubAdmin Joined: 18 Nov 2001 Posts: 5182

I am pretty sure Zugg is still offerring a discount to registered zMud users. The store system is very automatic and is based off your email address.I would suggest logging into your store account first, and trying to buy CMud. If you don't see a specific discount, you can ccontact Zugg by email from the relevant contact links As far as I know ther store system is very good about detecting existing users and applying the current discount Zugg has set. In most cases attempts to reach Zugg for this type of issue will be fielded by Chaiara, and her response time is usually within 24 hours. The weekend might change that by a bit, but I quite confident that one of them will reposnd shortly.

Wanderer Joined: 14 Jul 2004 Posts: 83

While CMUD is definitely written for Vista, you should still be able to run ZMUD using it. One thing to try while you're waiting for a response from Zugg and Chiara is to right click on your ZMUD icon and adjust the properties so that you are running it as an administrator. Vista is very snarky about that and the User Account Controls are the bane of many a Vista user's life.

Site Admin Joined: 29 Sep 2000 Posts: 388 Location: USA

Actually, all CMUD discounts expired after the first year of release.

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:03 pm

There is a post on zMUD forums about running zMUD on Vista, and how to accomplish that. Take a look at that post if you are comfortable with zMUD and have no desire to upgrade to CMUD. I have bought two copies of CMUD, and I'm quite happy about it, and would have paid full price happily.

Holly, while you say that you aren't being petulent or juvenile, you are, in fact, being just that. You're just about to cross the line into demanding that you get a discount for being such a faithful customer of one of Zugg's products. To me, that's like saying, "Hey, McDonalds! I've been eating here for the past 10 years. Give me a discount or I'll stop eating here!" Now, I'm not trying to sound condescending, but do you not see how ridiculous that is?

Zugg did offer a discount on CMUD. Chiara says they stopped the discounts a year after release. That would have been about 8 months ago. Sorry, Holly.

Charneus

Enchanter Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 511 Location: USA

Charneus, you should've seen the outcry when Zugg first decided who would be eligbile for the discount back before CMUD was even partially released.

I don't think it is as much them being childish as it is that there still is the misunderstanding that CMUD is an upgrade rather than a separate program. People hear 'upgrade' or even think it and they don't see why they should have to pay full price to 'fix problems and make the program I already paid money for better'.

Wanderer Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 68 Location: Texas

Eh.. I paid for ZMud twice for myself and CMud pro three times over.. (One copy for myself, one each for a couple of friends..) I didn't have any real issues with doing so, even though I didn't get any discounts on any of them.. But I do feel that some people have a valid complaint. They should just voice it better. Personally, I think Zuggsoft could make more money from the influx of ZMud users if they offered CMud with a 10$ discount for -any- previous ZMud users.. (Not just those who purchased it within the last year, as I believe the original offer was that doesn't even exist anymore) But that's just my own personal opinion on it.. Zugg likely disagrees.. Ehe..

All in all, I just think Holly has a valid complaint in alot of ways, but it really doesn't affect me much.. I'll pay full price for any more copies of CMud I might need. It doesn't bother me at all.. But I can definitely understand those wih a point of view that are bothered by it.

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:09 pm

Dumas, I was there, and back then, it was ridiculous. You're right, though. CMUD is NOT an upgrade. It's a completely new product, otherwise zMUD would have been taken off the list. It's the same with Microsoft Windows. Each new version is not an upgrade, but a completely separate product. I would think more than anything that people would complain about Windows not being free, but I don't work in the marketing world any more, and I decline to pay attention to the voice of the customer unless I am on the same page as they.

The only reason why people think of CMUD as an upgrade is because it's essentially the same program, but it's speed and functionailty has increased. What they don't realize is that CMUD is so much more than zMUD ever was. And I'll be the first to admit. At one time, I was mistaken about the "upgrade." But I learned, and I'm quite happy (again) paying full price. :)

Charneus

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:18 pm

I actually think I got off easy. I was within the window to get the free Cmud upgrade and I purchased the CmudPro upgrade after that at a very discounted rate.

Overall when my time runs out for my current copy I'll gladly pay for the next one because the support really is great here. I've never had software so responsive to submitted bugs. Well, to be honest, I've never used software with this many bugs, but the functionality is peerless and it is rather satisfying to see the bugs fixed in short order.

Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:05 am

At 70 years old and still mudding. . . but

Times change and boy! can I confirm that! (Okay, young'uns, prepare yourself for life changes which actually are a bit more than mudding!)

At first I was a little irritated and perturbed since I believe I purchased my first zMud at the beginning of time (when it first was sold), and I really truly loved it. However, as I pondered the situation and particularly thought about Zugg and Chiara, the time/effort/care that they put into their creations, and also the many gurus here, well. . .

Remember, we all derive pleasure and satisfaction from this unique vehicle :) At least a hundred times over.

Personally, due to my -faltering age-, the care and help extended to me by many in getting me up and running was phenomenal. Take a bow please Zugg and Vijilante! Bless you!

Holly, I struggled with zMud and Vista for a long time, never finding a solution--even some of the solutions offered here. Vista simply is a pain in the butt! I wish I'd purchased CMUD before I started stressing, because when the super guys took me over it was total relief! And I have been mudding to my heart's content once more.

Thank you all.

Adept Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 246

It is common nowadays for every vendor to charge for new major revisions. And many of these have almost yearly releases.

However... it is also common to allow previous users to have some sort of upgrade discount for an unlimited time, or a time counted in versions (i.e., you get the discount as long as you have a version newer than N-2).

One thing that kinda sucks here is that zMUD doesn't work "well"/at all on Vista, and so it's pretty much a forced upgrade. "Forced" + "no discount" leads to complaints

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Newbie Joined: 14 Jul 2008 Posts: 5

1) Apple, when they upgrade, have you pay full price for the upgrade (read tiger to leopard). Microsoft, when you have Office 2000, and want 2007, has you pay full price for an 'upgrade.' There are only a few programs where a significant discount is allowed for upgrades, and these are severely proprietary programs (avid, adobe software, lightwave, maya, etc). Even then, the majority of users who pay for that upgrade do so because having the latest engine/software has an influence on their finances/contracts. They do it because they need it.

2) Consider the time spent MUDding. If you spend less than 6 hours a week MUDding, maybe you don't need the 'upgrade' to cMUD. However, I myself, traveller, user of proprietary software, MUDder for years and at 2/3 hrs a day, see that my interest in using the features supported by cMUD means that the relatively small software price is worth it. cMUD is the result of -recent- development by Zugg. Your $30 well spent 7 years ago was for a piece of software written -more than- 7 years ago. The bottom line is you are paying for Zugg's current capability to continue supporting and releasing fixes and clients in general. Which makes it all worth it.

Wanderer Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 68 Location: Texas

Novice Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 49

I just wanted to add my words here about paying the price for CMUD. My husband has several copies of Zmud, Cmud and even of all the different other software of Zuggsoft licenses in his name, because we do wish to support the good work done by Zugg and his wife. And it has been well worth it and will keep doing so with new software which comes out. As a seperate note, I myself use WinXP, mainly because I do not like Vista, and I have been pretty pleased with it. Zmud took what 7 years to get to where it is now. Cmud's progress has been much faster in my view, and I am pleased with what it allows me to do.

Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:24 pm

Nicodareus: I can sympathize with what you and others in this forum are saying. I also hate the Microsoft forced-update policy. In fact, I stopped using Microsoft Money exactly because they were forcing upgrades (old versions would stop accessing online banks after a year or two). And I haven't updated MS Office in many years because they haven't added anything that I need (fortunately my Office 2003 keeps working, although the last time I had to "activate" my MS Office license within VMware, it failed, so I'm never buying another copy of Office again either).

But this is *very different* than the situation with zMUD/CMUD. CMUD is a completely new and different product that just happens to be as compatible with zMUD as possible. As many have said, it is *not* an upgrade to zMUD. Yes, I "already knew" how to write a telnet client, but it still took 2 years of full-time work to create CMUD. Even with porting the zMUD mapper and database modules directly into CMUD instead of rewriting them.

At the time that I agreed to write CMUD so that people would have a Vista-compatible MUD client, I made it very clear that the only way I'd spend that kind of time is if I would get paid for the results so that I can pay my bills. It was literally a decision of "abandon MUDs entirely and get some other full-time job", or "re-focus on supporting the MUD community but charge for my work". So it was either pay for CMUD, or no CMUD would have been written and we wouldn't be having this discussion because this web site would have been gone completely because I'd be out of business. I gave a lot of very generous discounts during the first year of CMUD. It's theoretically possible I might offer discounts in the future, just like some stores have sales now and then. But right now I can't afford to do that.

There is a *huge* difference between a large company like Microsoft and a two-person company like Zuggsoft. Microsoft can subsidize products with other sources of income (like giving away Internet Explorer for free). I can't do that...I don't have any other sources of income. So be careful what you compare this too.

With CMUD there is a 2-year upgrade policy. And I have always said that I'd *only* charge for updates to *major* new versions. I'm not going to charge you "yearly" or anything like that, and I'm not going to charge just for minor bug fixes like many vendors do. In fact, you'll notice that even though 2 years has already past for people who bought the first release of CMUD, I am still not charging for upgrades to 2.xx.

I'm not trying to get rich on this. I'm charging enough to barely break even. Prices on everything else (food, gas, etc) have all been rising and I haven't increased prices in several years. I'm not in this for the money...I'm in this because I love MUDs and don't want to see them die. But I can't do it for free. Maybe if some rich person paid me off and bought Zuggsoft then I could make it all free. But until that happens or I win the lottery, I have to charge for my work.

Wanderer Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 68 Location: Texas

I understand all of that. I think you are somewhat misconstruing what I'm saying here. I don't think you should give CMud away for free by any means. Although I think your position on this is a bit counter-productive to making more money here. I think you'd have a noticable influx of sales if you offered CMud at a $10-$15 discount for users who already own ZMud. At least for the first couple of months or so until that particular 'flood' of ZMud users had come and past. I can't see your figures so I don't know how many of your customers who are purchasing CMud already own ZMud.. I have no full idea on what sort of impact this would have on your sales. But I do know you'd have at least one customer you'd never have had before if you did have such a continual offer. (I.e. The topic op.) As well as various other ZMud users who may currently be refusing to purchase CMud for similar reasons.

Not to mention, that many more users would be getting away from ZMud, which in my personal opinion, is a good thing.. I've pretty much given up on the idea of fully supporting MXP for ZMud solely due to the fact that it is bugged out so hard in so many ways when it comes to MXP. I can only do so much for those particular players. CMud will pretty much be required for 'full' MXP support. But that's just personal reasoning there.

You also have to think about the chain effects that are possible from such an offer. Personally, I had no interest in CMud when the 'upgrade' options were available (Which I'm under the impression from this thread, was free. Not something I personally would have done for more than a month or so.. $10 for a while would be more like it, followed up with a never-ending $20 offer after that particular periodwas up.) since it didn't handle MXP near as well as ZMud did. Though, the tables have turned on that rather drastically, especially over the past month or so, for obvious reasons. Ever since I made my purchase, I've also passed the word along to my mates and they decided to go ahead and upgrade as well.. (Granted, I had to pay for both their copies, but still. That's $120 out of my own pocket for 3 licenses for this one product, $80 of which wouldn't be present if I hadn't passed along word of mouth.) Such an offer would tremendously increase your word of mouth as well as improve how alot of people view Zuggsoft in general. This sort of offer only goes so far in that only so many people are still using ZMud, so it's not exactly like it's bank-breaking and at this point in the game, I'd assume that most people who are going to pay full price to move up to CMud have already done so. Basically, you are alienating yourself from a potential market in my opinion. Those that will -never- pay full price for CMud as long as Zmud will do what they need it to do, that is. Instead of looking at it as losing $10-$15 a sale, you should see it as $15-$20 you never would have otherwise had to begin with.

But this is all business semantics really. Like I said, I don't know your figures. This is kinda just all a personal viewpoint on it. I understand fully breaking even and such. And especially increasing gas prices. I work in the oilfield. I drive 80-120 miles for my job every single day and I pay for my own gas. It can be tough to compensate. I just kind of think this sort of thing would be better overall for not only your customers, but you as well. And me, as I'd have an easier way to push CMud from my MUDs by being able to tell people that such an offer is existant and well worth it, considering the tremedous difference CMud makes over ZMud on my MUDs. Granted, this particular train of thought originally stemmed from me pondering discussing such a discount for sales pushed from my games, but that is an entirely different discussion altogether and more reserved for a private talk later in life when I decide to go commercial.

Also, I did not realize that CMud was a 2-year upgrade sort of deal. That rather irritates me at this point. Granted, at least I don't have to worry about being locked out from it when that time comes like subscription-based programs (Antivirii...) But I really hope that some sort of discount is offered for any such major upgrade for existing users or I'll likely be looking for a different route when I come to that toll-bridge. I simply feel that you should grant your long-running users more than a pat on the back and a "Thanks for playing! Now if you want the next one.. Buy it again.." I don't mind paying for an upgrade, but charge me an upgrade price. Also, on a side-note, getting back to ZMud, I understand that CMud is not so much an 'upgrade' to ZMud as a totally new product. But the vast majority of your customers who use ZMud and currently refuse to move up are going to see it as that. It's a similar program that does the same thing with up to date features and in alot of peoples views, that -is- just an upgrade to them. This once again just boils down to an issue of semantics and one persons view of the word 'upgrade' as opposed to anothers. If you want to get literal about (and take a video game point of view of the situation) an upgrade doesn't necessarily only refer to the same object. An Iron Sword on a video game is typically an upgrade from a Bronze sword, despite the fact that it's an entirely different weapon from an entirely different source.

I really hope I'm not coming off as too much of a jerk this time, but I really have some strong issues about this sort of thing. I understand making due, but I also understand good business sense and loyalty to long-time paying customers. Especially those who pay for your products multiple times and have proven to be a steady source of income. This isn't the kind of person you want to drive away over this sort of thing. And despite how I've worded this, I am not referring primarily to myself. I don't like the idea of -anyone- being treated like a new customer when they have been a long-standing source of income. I'll go ahead and wrap this up with my typical attitude about this sort of thing.. It's your program and I really don't care how you handle this kind of situation. In my opinion, it's just a loss on your own part, though you clearly see it differently. The only thing that really gives me any dissatisfied feelings towards Zuggsoft is the fact that you pointed out that the CMud license is theoretically only good for 2 years worth of upgrades. If I have to pay full price to upgrade to 3.0 here in a couple of years, for me -and- both of my mates.. I'll likely be saying goodbye to CMud, because I consider that vastly lousy service and I really -REALLY- doubt I'll be the only person doing so. I'm sure you'll still have the dedicated following that obviously seems to think that this is the correct course of action for Zuggsoft, new sales and people who just flat out don't care or have the money to burn... But I guarantee there will also be another phantom market there that you won't have access to, just like the dedicated Zmud cult that refuses to pay the full $30 for CMud. You may be making less money per sale, but you are also making less sales and losing loyal customers that way.

All in all, sorry to rant.. I don't care.. It just struck a chord with me when I found out that I just spent $120 that you're likely going to try to charge me again here in a few years. Kudos to you for not charging for the upgrades recently as you pointed out, but it's going to happen, I'm sure. I think you simply take the wrong approach on this sort of thing. There are levels between 'free' and 'full-price' that open up so much more market potential in this kind of situation and I simply feel that you are limiting your customerbase and excluding a large majority of the MUD populace from a great product.

This is simply an expression of opinion (And difference thereof) I hope I haven't insulted you in any way, as that's not what I'm going for. I simply wish to explain my own view on the situation.

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:45 am

I have always said that upgrades will be half of whatever the current full price is. I'd *never* charge full price for upgrades. So, hopefully that takes care of your lingering dissatisfaction.

As far as offering a discount, what I have learned is that I cannot please everyone. I'd like to, but everytime I try I get burned. For example, it seems simple to just offer another discount for zMUD users now. Even though we previously had discounts for many many months, and even sent two separate emails to all registered zMUD users (and bulk mailing 60,000 zMUD users isn't cheap either).

So yes, I could try sending *another* email to people who have already gotten emails in the past and have already ignored discount offers. But then what about the zMUD users who already bought CMUD at full price during the past year. I'm not going to retroactively refund anything. So all of those users get pissed off. They would say that they paid full price for CMUD when it was still full of bugs and now I'm giving a discount to reward people who waited. They will just say "I should have just waited". So those people are not happy either. Can't make everyone happy no matter what.

Remind your friends that CMUD is still currently on sale. It's $29.95 instead of $34.95. What if I just changed the wording on the site to say that CMUD was $34.95 and that existing zMUD users could get it for $29.95? Then it sounds like they are getting a discount, but nothing has really changed. See, that's the kind of "sales games" that I just don't like to play. I know that it's probably "good business", but it's not really my style. CMUD is currently on sale because it has been buggy. When it gets stable (which is probably relatively soon), then it will go up to be the same price as zMUD ($34.95).

Anyway, sorry you got so worried and upset about the upgrade issue. Not sure where you got that idea (why do people always assume the worse??)...the fact that upgrades will be half-price has been documented in many different forum threads around here. I just didn't put anything official in the sales page yet because we haven't yet started charging *anything* for upgrades yet.

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:56 am

Zugg, imho, you program your heart and soul into your products, even $35 for a lil piece of that every other year, is money well spent!

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:31 am

You know what? Living on social security a few years has forced me to be much more frugal :) (like that word kiddies?? teasing, of course)

I argued with myself for awhile about investing in CMUD when I had loved zMud so much, but the bottomline is this: If someone gave me a million dollars to do what you have done, Zugg, I'd have to cry in frustration and jump off a bridge! And although, you generate a bit of income from your product, your heart love shows through. Further, the biggest whiners are probably the biggest mud addicts (maybe even thieves!). If any of us is addicted to mudding with Zugg's product, why do we begrudge him offering to sell it to us?

So, those who don't think this man, Zugg (as well as his lovely wife, his helpmate), hasn't done something wonderful for us for the past umpteen years, then you may have a glitch in your head. Nothing is for free in this life, and you've probably paid a heck of a lot more for -many- things that you have enjoyed one half as much.

And you know what else? I don't understand a thing that you all talk about in your posts (or very, very little), guys and gals; however, I do read them in the hopes that osmosis will come into play :) But you know who listens to every word you say, every complaint you have, every rant? You tell me who that person is. And that same guy provides all of us answers, fixes, etc.

Adept Joined: 04 Feb 2005 Posts: 246

Adept Joined: 27 May 2008 Posts: 299

Why does he need to offer a discount at all? Its relativly cheap compared to the functionality it brings. And the support behind it is second to none. Pay it or don't.

Wizard Joined: 14 Oct 2000 Posts: 1368

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:51 pm

Rorso: That is *exactly* why I haven't started charging for upgrades yet. I changed the official upgrade policy for CMUD because I couldn't promise free upgrades forever like with zMUD. But that doesn't mean that I'm definitely going to charge for upgrades...it just means that I have that option in the future if I need it.